Clause 36
Particulars to be included in vehicles register
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Chope: Why is this requirement being extended to keepers of vehicles rather than just applying to buyers and sellers as is currently the case? If the
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purpose is to ensure that when vehicles change hands there is a record of the odometer reading, what difference does it make if the vehicle is being used by a whole host of different people, but has not actually changed hands? Surely the significant time and the point at which fraud arises is when somebody sells a vehicle with a reading that is inaccurate. It would be the owner of the vehicle who sold it, and the previous owner of the vehicle who sold it before that. Why should the keeper of the vehicle be under any obligation to keep the DVLA informed of the odometer reading in the interim period?
Mr. Jamieson: The intention is that when a vehicle changes hands from one keeper to another a record of the odometer readingnot the mileometer readingis passed on. The hon. Gentleman will be aware that there is considerable fraud involving turning back the clocks on vehicles. That is an old practice and I am afraid that it has not been made any more difficult by the modern digital odometers. In fact, the other day I passedI think that it was on the A40a little sign that said that if anybody wanted their odometer attended to, they could ring that number. It seemed to me it that was just trying to attract somebody who wanted to turn the odometer back 50,000 miles and probably add a couple of thousand pounds to the value of the vehicle.
That is what the measure is intended to address. It is a good measure, and intended for the changeover point between one vehicle keeper and another. There is not necessarily any point in informing the DVLA, except when a car is going for an MOT test, at which point the reading is routinely recorded. In the case of cars that are younger than three years, people would not need to inform the DVLA, unless the car was changing ownership.
Mr. Knight: I understand why the Minister wants to do that. Will he tell the Committee whether he anticipates the Department being proactive when this information is required to be recorded, or whether it will be reactive?
4.53 pm
Sitting suspended for a Division in the House.
5.8 pm
On resuming
Mr. Knight: Does the Minister think that the DVLA will be proactive as a matter of practice? If it receives information that a vehicle's mileage has gone down, will it take action or will it wait for a new purchaser to make a complaint?
Mr. Jamieson: Having this information available on the record will be useful in two respects. If the DVLA spots that a vehicle's mileage has gone backwards over a period of time, it will set alarm bells ringing. It will want to check why that vehicle has gone several thousand miles or more backwards, which could occasion enforcement action.
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Mr. Knight: Does the Minister accept that there may be some cases in which a reduction in mileage is innocent? A friend of mine used to runhe may still run ita Rover P5B 3.5 litre coupe, which was the same model of Rover car that Harold Wilson used when he was Prime Minister. The speedometer on the vehicle ceased to work. He could not buy a new one, but he managed to obtain a working replacement speedometer from a scrap yard which allowed him to continue to run the car. However, the mileage was different.
Mr. Jamieson: In such a case, the DVLA would have to make checks with the person, who would have to present some evidence that they had done that. In any case, if someone changes the speedometer with the odometer reading, he would be advised to obtain some evidence at the time, either from the dealer or someone else, to show that he had made that change so that he had the necessary documentation.
There is an important extra check that will help the person buying the vehicle. If the car has changed hands before and the documentation has the odometer reading from the last time, the person can look at the odometer in the vehicle and, if he sees that it has gone backwards or done a low mileage that the customer suspects is not right, he will have the opportunity to back out of the deal.
The clause also gives dealers an opportunity to do checks when vehicles are brought into them. They are canny operators and are not going to buy vehicles that they think are clocked. It is not in their interests to do so because they will pay more for those vehicles. For the person buying the car, it is worth checking with a company such as HPI, Experian or Carwatch UK, who will, for a fee, check whether there is any outstanding hire purchase, whether the vehicle has been written off and so on. Such information, including the odometer reading, will be contained in a readout and is useful for someone who is investing from a few hundred to many thousands of pounds on a vehicle.
What makes me cross is that the people who lose out are the little people, which is why I want the provision. They are often the poorest people and are buying cheap cars. Often, they are youngsters buying their first car. Those people buy in good faith, either privately or from an unscrupulous dealer. They pay good money that they have saved up from their low income, only to find that someone has clocked the car and they have paid £1,000 more than it is worth. A dealer in the west country set my pulse racing. He had made millions by clocking cars and selling them for more than they were worth. Those cars were mainly at the lower end of the market and went to people on a low income. That is why the issue is so important.
There tends to be less of a problem at the quality end of the car market, as the right hon. Member for East Yorkshire knows, because the service record often contains all that information. However, at the cheap end of the market, that information is often not there.
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The clause offers a good bit of consumer protection and I hope that the Committee will give its full support to the clause.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 36 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 37 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 38
Disclosure to foreign authorities of licensing and registration information
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Knight: I want assurances from the Minister that nothing in the clause will lead to the Secretary of State or any Department releasing or passing on any part of a driver's record. Does he envisage the power being used to assist a foreign Government who have no reciprocal arrangement with us? Does he imagine that the clause will be used to supply information to them as a one-way process? Will it be used only where there is an intergovernmental agreement?
Mr. Jamieson: The clause will enable the DVLA and its counterpart in Northern Ireland, the DVLANI, to disclose information regarding driver licensing and vehicle registration to overseas counterparts. That statutory authority will enable the UK to ratify the treaty on European vehicle registration and driver licensing information systems known, as I am sure the right hon. Gentleman is aware, as EUCARIS. It was signed by the UK, Belgium, Germany, Luxembourg and the Netherlands on 29 June 2000.
5.15 pm
The treaty is designed to facilitate the exchange of information on driver licensing and vehicle registration to reduce cross-border crime and improve road safety. Disclosure of the licensing and registration information will make it much more difficult for criminals to reregister stolen vehicles or commit other vehicle-related offences and to obtain British driving licences to which they have no entitlement. We want to ratify the measure in our law because we want the treaty to come into effect. The relationships with various countries will gradually build up and we will have more comprehensive information. I shall get hold of something intelligible on the subject of what the DVLA can disclose and pass that information on to the Committee.
As I understand it, the arrangement is bilateral and only there for those countries with which we have such agreements. The right hon. Gentleman can see the huge advantage of such an exchange throughout the European Union, because that is where most of the inter-country traffic comes from. The arrangement will have a huge benefit because it does not affect law-abiding people, only those who try to slip around the law.
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Mr. Chope: Does the provision deal with protection from data being leaked by foreign organisations? As I understand it, the rationale is that, because the DVLA is registered as a data controller, it could pass such data on to foreign organisations. What protection does the British driver have against the misuse of information, in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 in the UK, by a foreign body that has been given information by the DVLA?
The Minister listed the original signatories to the agreement. It is significant that France, Spain, Italy and Germanythe big boys in European road transportwere not included. When does he expect to enter into agreements with those countries so that we can get access to information from them about their vehicles and their drivers?
Mr. Jamieson: Germany was one of the original signatories.
Any country with which we exchange such information must have tight systems for the release of that information. That is part of the agreement we are making within the European Union and, in a small way, it cracks down on some of the inter-border crime. The principles in the Data Protection Act will be transferred to other countries to ensure that information which we do not want released is not improperly released to third parties.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 38 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
The Chairman: Before I call the next amendment, I will try and focus minds on the situation. We have had several Divisions. We also lost an hour due to Divisions on the Floor of the House, so we have had some exercise. I know there is a wish to leave Thursday's two sittings for the new clauses and to complete the main part of the Billthe clauses and schedulestoday. If the Committee feels we could do that by 6 o'clock, I will not adjourn for a tea break. If the Committee is not happy with that, I will adjourn for a tea break at 5.30 pm and we will have to come back. I am trying to be helpful. Is there a feeling we can finish by 6 o'clock?
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