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Mr. Foster: Yet again the Minister has been inordinately helpful and, given that he has also agreed with my sentiments—that must at least merit a postcard back home to Mrs. Foster—I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 72 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 73
Individual condition imposed by Commission
Mr. Foster: I beg to move amendment No. 232A, in clause 73, page 31, line 29, at end add
', provided that the principles for attaching such condition shall be set out in the statement referred to in section 22.'.
I am not sure what the Minister is going to say to persuade me to withdraw this amendment, because it concerns the conditions that would be attached to licences. The Communications Act 2003 is much clearer about the possible nature and scope of such conditions. It is clearly important for anyone who is applying for a licence to have in advance an indication of the issues likely to be covered in the conditions attached to it.
It is important that we have greater clarity as proposed by the amendment, which basically says that the issues will be those covered in the statement made under section 22. Without such a statement, it would be difficult for anybody to challenge a determination, and I am certainly unclear about what would be the basis of success for any such challenge. I hope that the Government are willing to go at least some way towards accepting the amendment, as they thought that it was important to do something similar during the passage of the Communications Act.
Mr. Caborn: In imposing individual conditions on operating licences, the commission will have to have regard to the licensing objectives clearly set out in clause 1 and act in accordance with the policy for licensing and regulation in clause 22. As such, amendment No. 232A is unnecessary. I hope that the hon. Gentleman's concerns are dealt with and that he will withdraw the amendment.
Mr. Foster: Is the Minister assuring me that the effect of the amendment—that the conditions imposed must relate not only to the objectives in clause 1 but to
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the details in clause 22—is already covered in the Bill? He is clearly nodding, so I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 73 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 74 and 75 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 76
Requirement for personal licence
Mr. Caborn: I beg to move amendment No. 281, in clause 76, page 33, line 20, leave out
'which carries (whether solely or otherwise)'
and insert
'the occupier of which is required, by the terms of his appointment, to take or share'.
Clause 76 makes provision for the commission to include an operating licence condition in relation to persons who are required to hold personal licences. Government amendment No. 281 makes a small drafting change to subsection (5) to make it clearer which personnel hold management office and may therefore be required to hold a personal licence.
Amendment agreed to.
Mr. Foster: I beg to move amendment No. 235A, in clause 76, page 33, line 45, at end add—
'(10) For the avoidance of doubt the provisions of this section shall be interpreted to be consistent with the provisions of Part 6 of this Act.'.
The amendment addresses an issue that was raised by the scrutiny Committee in its first report, published on 25 March this year. Its purpose is to be entirely helpful to the Government, because I genuinely believe that it would make the entire clause work much better. The amendment would ensure that the clause links with part 6 regarding personal licences. It would avoid any confusion that might arise if the two sections conflict on any issue, and thus would make the provisions work more effectively and allow the commission to use its powers without legal conflict.
I have no doubt that the Minister will have had a detailed legal briefing on the purpose of the amendment, so rather than going into greater detail, I shall look forward to his explanation of his understanding of it and his comments on it.
4.45 pm
Mr. Caborn: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about making sure that the personal licence regime in part 6 is clearly tied to clause 76. With that in mind, I have tabled amendments to clauses 120 and 121 to make it clear that part 6 and clause 76 should be read together. Those are amendments Nos. 293 to 295, which come further on in our order of consideration.
I believe that clause 76 is clear enough as it stands, as it relates to what personal licence condition should be added to operating licences. Part 6 is clearly flagged as concerning the granting of those personal licences. With that in mind, I hope that the hon. Gentleman feels that he can withdraw the amendment.
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Mr. Foster: The Minister is extremely helpful, as ever. Of course, when we come to the amendments that he mentioned, he will bear it in mind that he will have to make sure that clause 121 is tied in similarly. In light of the Minister's assurance that his later amendments will cover the same issues, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 76, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 77
Credit and inducements
Mr. Foster: I beg to move amendment No. 196, in page 34, line 15, leave out subsection (3).
This is rather more complicated, so I hope that the Committee will bear with me for a few minutes.
The clause concerns restrictions on the offering of credit and inducements by operating licence holders. Credit is defined in subsection (4) as
''any form of financial accommodation''
excluding cash, cheques or debit card payments. Subsection (1) provides that the commission may attach to an operating licence a condition about the giving of credit in relation to licensed gambling activities; making offers or inducements designed to induce participation in licensed gambling activities; or being party to arrangements for inducing, permitting or assisting persons to gamble. There is a real range of issues about those opportunities.
For many people, the concern about problem gambling is concern about people who chase their losses. People who chase their losses—particularly, as evidence from elsewhere suggests, in relation to high-stake, high-payout machines—are the very ones likely to go in search of additional money when their funds run out. The amendment seeks to put a barrier in the way of people seeking to obtain additional credit on the premises as one means of reducing the likelihood of problem gambling.
Mr. Caborn: I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern and his reason for tabling the amendment. Operators of casino premises should certainly never offer credit, and the Bill prevents that. However, there is a significant difference between the licensee offering credit facilities and such facilities being offered by a reputable credit provider. We do not see any harm in the latter, as long as the credit provider is operating at arm's length and the licensee is not receiving any payment for that facility. It is worth noting that the practice is permitted in casinos and has been for some time. We are not aware of any problems rising from it but, if any problems emerge, the Secretary of State and the gambling commission will have specific powers to impose new requirements that better protect the consumer. I hope that, with that reassurance, the hon. Gentleman will be content and withdraw the amendment.
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Mr. Foster: I am not entirely reassured, but these are matters that a number of Committee members may wish to return to later, so, for the time being, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 77 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 78 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 79
Return of stakes to children
Amendment made: No. 236, in page 35, line 11, after 'facilities', insert 'for gambling'.—[Mr. Caborn.]
Mr. Caborn: I beg to move amendment No. 282, in page 35, line 15, after 'to', insert '(a)'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to take Government amendments Nos. 283 and 284.
Mr. Caborn: The amendments would ensure that children were still able to play some low-level games, such as the teddy cranes, in family entertainment centres; otherwise clause 79 would effectively prevent them from doing so.
Amendment No. 284 would redefine ''prize'' to cover prizes in respect of gambling, including betting and lotteries, instead of just gaming. Without it, the clause would regulate the return of prizes to children and young persons in relation to gaming, and not betting or lotteries.
Amendment agreed to.
Amendment made: No. 283, in page 35, line 15, at end insert
', or (b) participation in equal chance gaming at a licensed family entertainment centre.'.—[Mr. Caborn.]
Mr. Foster: I beg to move amendment No. 195, in page 35, line 18, leave out from 'law' to end of line 25.
The Committee may be getting as fed up with me as it is with the Minister. Nevertheless, I have to point out that at the moment it would be possible for a child to come into an area where they are entitled to go, and to use a gaming machine under age with no prospect of losing money, only the prospect of winning and keeping the money. It strikes me as odd that the Bill would make it possible for under-age people to come into a gaming area—obviously, one seeks to prevent them from doing that—and win money, with no requirement for that money to be returned. It makes sense to address that particular loophole, as I and many other people see it. A great deal of research has been done on the matter, and it has been referred to in a number of newspaper articles and reports. The Minister will be thoroughly briefed and I look forward to his answer.
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