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Mr. Foster: I beg to move amendment No. 247, in page 53, line 21, after 'statement', insert
', following consultation with those parties set out in section 23(10),'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 248, in clause 116, page 55, line 13, after 'consult', insert
'the parties referred to in section 23(10) (b) to (d)'.
Mr. Foster: These are simple amendments. I suspect that the Minister will agree with the theory, if not the precise wording, of both of them. He will assure me that all the people in the list in clause 23 to which I refer will be involved in the consultation. When he puts that on the record, I shall be extremely happy.
While the Minister takes the opportunity to check that out, may I remind the Committee that clause 114 deals with the giving of financial penalties if conditions in an operating licence have been breached? I note that the commission has to develop a statement to explain the procedure that it will use. I suspect that that statement will not include details of any tariff system that might apply. However, rather bizarrely, unlike anyone in any other part of our legal system, those imposing penalties will have to
''have regard . . . to . . . the nature of the licensee (including, in particular, his financial resources).''
It would be interesting if one could be taken to court under our normal legal system, and have one's parking fine varied depending on one's income—that is the new approach that is being adopted.
At any rate, there is to be a statement on which there is to be consultation by the commission, the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor. I share that with the Committee because it is clearly relevant; it is in subsection (8)(b). I note with considerable interest that we are about to debate in another place the future of the Lord Chancellor. The Liberal Democrats have a whipped vote on whether the Lord Chancellor should sit on the Woolsack, but no whipped vote on whether he should have appropriate qualifications. I leave the Committee to consider the wisdom of that.
There is a list of consultees, and the third in the list is
''such other persons as the Commission thinks appropriate.''
I have suggested in my amendment who those people should be, because they appear elsewhere in the Bill. If the list is considered appropriate elsewhere, it might be sensible to include it here as well. The Minister will no doubt assure me that all is well.
Clause 116 covers a totally different issue, the levy that will be imposed by the commission on all those to whom it grants licences, which will be used for a range of purposes. We all know that some money will go to organisations such as GamCare to help with problem gambling, but it will be possible to use the money to meet any of the Bill's licensing objectives, which we have debated, or to deal with any
''harm or exploitation associated with gambling''.
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My point is that there will be a lot of debate about the size of the levy. The Minister may like to comment on the likelihood that the cause of the increase in problem gambling that many right hon. and hon. Members expect as a result of the legislation will be, primarily, the increase in the number of casinos, particularly regional casinos with category A machines, not anything that is taking place in family entertainment centres. I assume that there will be a need to discuss a differential levy, taking account of the increased likelihood of different types of organisation adding to the issue of problem gambling. If so, it is vital that all organisations are consulted about arrangements for the levy, which is what the second amendment in this group would ensure. The first amendment relates to the penalties charged for breaches in operating licences; the second relates to arrangements for the levy. In both cases, we are seeking to insert in the Bill a list of people who must be consulted.
Mr. Caborn: I think that everybody acknowledges—indeed, the hon. Gentleman did so—that the financial penalties are a significant sanction available to the commission. The commission must have the option of imposing a financial penalty on operating licence holders who commit a serious breach of the licence conditions. The hon. Gentleman asked at what level that penalty would be set. That would be up to the commission, but a big company may merit a totally different fine to a smaller business, a point that relates to earlier amendments.
It is right that, in the case of such severe penalties, the commission should be required to prepare a statement setting out the principles that it will apply. Under subsection (8), the commission is required to consult the Secretary of State and the Lord Chancellor because of their respective roles. The commission also has the opportunity to consult such people that it considers appropriate, and we expect that it will take that opportunity given the relationship that it will have with the industry—we hope that there will be a proper working relationship between the commission and the industry. However, to prescribe the persons that the commission must consult is not the right way forward. The commission is bound to act sensibly and reasonably in preparing its statement on financial penalties.
Mr. Foster: The Minister could save the Committee's time if he can say that he imagines that the list of bodies referred to in my amendment will, in all likelihood, be consulted by the commission and the Secretary of State respectively. I think that he can probably say yes to that and I will be a happy bunny.
Mr. Caborn: The hon. Gentleman will be a happy bunny then because the answer is yes—there is another postcard to Mrs. Foster. We are doing extremely well this morning; the festive season must be upon us.
A similar point applies to amendment No. 248, which relates to the provision of a levy on holders of operating licences. The money raised by the levy will be used to alleviate problem gambling, to which the hon. Gentleman referred. Clearly, the Secretary of State will want to consult the commission before
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providing for a levy, and the clause allows for that. The Secretary of State will consult a range of parties before taking any action. To prescribe the persons that she will consult in the way proposed is too rigid, but the scope that the hon. Gentleman indicates through his amendment will be appropriate, if not totally exclusive.
The Chairman: I call the hon. Member speaking on behalf of Mrs. Foster.
Mr. Foster: If either you, Mr. Gale, or the Minister think that, despite its being the festive season, I will get away with just a few postcards at this time of year, you are sadly mistaken.
I particularly thank the Minister for his generosity in not drawing attention to the drafting error in my amendment, which I am sure he spotted—the judicious addition of the word ''and'' would have been helpful. That is by the by, and it is appropriate that the Secretary of State consults the commission in relation to clause 116. I am grateful to the Minister for his clear assurance that all the bodies to which I refer in my amendment are likely to be consulted in most circumstances either by the commission or by the Secretary of State.
It may be convenient to the Committee to inform you, Mr. Gale, that I have no further amendments to speak to for some time, and that I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 114 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 115 to 119 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Schedule 6
Relevant Offences
Amendments made: No. 167, in page 159, line 24, at end insert—
'An offence under section 58(1) of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (convicted thief in possession).'.
No. 168, in page 159, line 25, at beginning insert—
'Both in England and Wales and in Scotland,'.
No. 169, in page 159, line 25, at end insert—
'In Scotland the offences at common law of—
(c) theft by housebreaking,
No. 170, in page 160, line 6, at end insert—
'An offence under section 52 or 52A of the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982 (offences relating to indecent photographs of children).
An offence under any of the following provisions of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995—
(b) section 2 (intercourse with a stepchild),
(c) section 3 (intercourse with child under 16 by person in position of trust),
(d) section 5 (unlawful intercourse with a girl under 16),
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(e) section 6 (indecent behaviour towards girl between 12 and 16),
(f) section 8 (detention of woman in brothel or other premises),
(g) section 10 (person having parental responsibilities causing or encouraging sexual activity in relation to a girl under 16), and
(h) section 13(5) (homosexual offences).
In Scotland, the offences at common law of—
(b) clandestine injury to women,
(c) abduction of a woman or girl with intent to rape or ravish,
(d) assault with intent to rape or ravish,
(f) lewd, indecent or libidinous behaviour or practices,
(j) culpable homicide, and
In Scotland, the offence at common law of uttering and fraud.'.
No. 292, in page 160, line 6, at end insert—
'14A An inchoate offence relating to an offence listed elsewhere in this Schedule.'.
Schedule 6, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 120
Nature of personal licence
Mr. Caborn: I beg to move amendment No. 293, in page 56, line 9, leave out 'a specified function' and insert
'the functions of a specified management office, or to perform a specified operational function,'.
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