Gambling Bill

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Mr. Caborn: Clause 222 provides two definitions: one for family entertainment centres, the other for licensed family entertainment centres. Those cover certain types of machine arcades and amusement centres. If premises are not in an adult gaming centre and they are wholly or mainly used for providing gaming machines, they will be a family entertainment centre. That distinguishes premises such as a pub or a club, which have only a few gaming machines, from premises such as arcades, whose main business is gaming machines.

However, there are two types of family entertainment centre under the Bill: one that offers just category D machines and one that offers category C and D machines. If a family entertainment centre wants to install category C machines, it must get an operating licence from the gambling commission and a premises licence from the local authority. It is those family entertainment centres that are known as licensed family entertainment centres. Category C machines will have to be sited in an adult-only area that is properly supervised, as required by clause 44(7).

If, however, a family entertainment centre wants to operate only category D machines, all it requires is a permit from the local authority. Clause 231 provides the procedure for getting those permits and clause 222 sets out the definition of family entertainment centres that are licensed and those that are not.

The premises will be the specific area. They can be part of a larger complex such as a shopping centre, but the gambling will always be separated from the retail side. There will be a clear distinction. We can see such a distinction if we look at motorway service stations, as they have been dealt with clearly in terms of both the area and the classification inside that area.

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Mr. Prisk: May I take it that there will be a plan that distinguishes the licensed area from the unlicensed area?

Mr. Caborn: Yes. Operators will be licensed in that part of the building that has either category C or category D machines in it, but not in the whole building.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 222 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Mr. Foster: On a point of order, Mr. Pike. On the issue that I raised a few minutes ago, I have now found that not only has one copy of the amendment been sent to me by the Department but that, for some bizarre reason, it has generously sent me two copies.

Mr. Caborn: One is for Mrs. Foster.

Mr. Foster: She will be delighted to receive it. It is longer correspondence than she has got so far. Mr. Pike, may I have your assurance that there will be a sufficient period in which to read the document? It is lengthy.

The Chairman: Which clause does the document relate to?

Mr. Foster: It relates to clause 226, which is coming up shortly.

The Chairman: There are no amendments to clause 226 on today's amendment paper. We will therefore consider whether clause 226 will stand part of the Bill as it is.

Mr. Foster: Some of the material in the new amendments, which as you rightly say, Mr. Pike, deal with other parts of the Bill, nevertheless have a bearing on clause 226.

The Chairman: No amendments have been tabled to clause 226 for consideration today, so I have to put the question on the clause as it is. It might be helpful if the Minister wrote to hon. Members about what he intends to do, but I can only follow the amendment paper as it is.

Mr. Hawkins: Further to that point of order, Mr. Pike. Just after we adjourned for lunch, the Government produced a document with around 10 pages of explanatory notes and a covering letter relating specifically to clause 226. As I understand it, the hon. Member for Bath simply wants a short suspension to enable all hon. Members to read the Government's explanatory notes and to see how they relate to clause 226. Would you consider a request made jointly by the hon. Gentleman and I—I suspect that my hon. Friend the Member for South-West Hertfordshire, among others, would also support such a request—for some time to enable us to look at what the Government are proposing in a clause that we are about to come to? Would it not be appropriate for us to have a chance to look at that?

Mr. Caborn: May I try to help? If the document says clause 226, there has been a typing error.

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Mr. Hawkins: It says clause 226.

Mr. Caborn: It should say clause 266. Perhaps we could have a short suspension, Mr. Pike, because I am bemused and do not quite know what the document says. If we suspend briefly, I might be able to settle the matter very quickly.

The Chairman: The Committee will suspend for 10 minutes.

3.27 pm

Sitting suspended.

3.36 pm

On resuming—

Mr. Prisk: On a point of order, Mr. Pike. I wish to register the strongest concern of Her Majesty's loyal Opposition to the way in which matters are unfolding. Six pages of the new schedule were presented to us less than 24 hours ago and, as a member of the Committee, I have had only two minutes in which to consider the amendments. While I understand that the Government's argument is that there is a tidying-up element to certain parts of the Bill and that we will have the opportunity on Report to address the matters, members of the Committee will know that the truth is that there will be no time in which to do that. We are worried that the quality of the scrutiny that will be permissible will be inadequate. I seek your guidance.

The Chairman: I do not think that we shall be debating such matters today. The Government are trying to be helpful by addressing the issue, but I have to call the amendments in the order in which they are selected. We are not likely to reach the amendments to which the hon. Gentleman referred today.

Mr. Prisk: Further to that point of order, Mr. Pike. Without wishing to disagree with you, I have scanned the details and it is clear that category C and D gaming machines are referred to and will be affected in substance. I entirely accept your point, but I wish to register our concern that the process that we are undertaking is inadequate and that the industry will see that the Bill will probably be inadequate, too.

The Chairman: I understand the hon. Gentleman's point, but it is obviously not for the Chair, but for the Government. I am sure that the Minister has taken note of what has been said.

Mr. Caborn: The hon. Gentleman will understand that we are responding to what the industry has said, especially about the licensing authorities under the Licensing Act 2003, as against the provisions in the Gambling Bill. We are trying to be helpful to licensing authorities and to make sure that nothing falls between the two pieces of legislation. The amendments will deal with the concerns expressed by the industry and will put a belt and braces on the situation.

Opposition Members have asked us to reassure small and medium-sized businesses and that is exactly what we are doing, because we can envisage a different

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interpretation between two pieces of legislation. By tabling the amendments, we are responding to the industry. I am sorry that we have not been able to draft them before now, but when two Acts of Parliament are brought in broadly at the same time, crossovers have to be dealt with.

Mr. Hawkins: Further to that point of order, Mr. Pike. I hear what the Minister says, but we are talking about the problems that may affect small businesses, the point to which my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford and Stortford (Mr. Prisk) referred earlier. It is significant to consider the position of small businesses that have an on-premises alcohol licence and may have category C or D machines, as referred to in the paragraph in the explanatory notes on clause 226. My worry and that of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Cambridgeshire, who dealt with the Licensing Bill, is that many of the Government's promises specifically to local authorities when the Licensing Bill was introduced have flagrantly been broken.

The Chairman: Order. I do not want us to debate the Licensing Bill.

Mr. Hawkins: No, I am not going to go down that track. I simply want to say that the reason that so many Opposition Committee members have concerns about the Government coming forward at the last minute with further changes and explanations about the interlinking of premises where alcohol is sold with the new gaming licensing regime is that local authorities, particularly small boroughs such as mine in Surrey Heath, are very upset about the fact that they have been penalised by the Government breaking their promises over licensing.

It is because of those broken promises and the concerns that we all have on behalf of small businesses in our constituencies that we are particularly anxious that the Government, having broken one set of promises that they made, are not allowed to get away with skating through last-minute changes to this legislation, with explanatory notes being produced at the final moment. I hope that the Minister recognises that there is a serious and genuine concern about what might happen the next time the Government want to make further changes. Committee members must have the explanatory notes before we address any further group of amendments that the Government want to introduce while the Bill is being considered.

Mr. Prisk: One of the difficulties, which was referred to this morning, is that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport and its officials are conducting a series of negotiations in parallel with this Committee's scrutiny process. There is a danger in that: it has limited the opportunity for the Committee to effect its scrutiny properly—to have the necessary time and so forth—because things have been happening almost simultaneously. That is why the process is inadequate, and what we are discussing is a symptom of that inadequacy.

The Chairman: Let us get on with the Bill now.

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Mr. Caborn: In defence of my officials and of what we are trying to do, any Members who have scrutinised legislation before will know that things happen as legislation is being taken through Parliament. Moreover, two or three pieces of legislation dovetail with this Bill. A new licensing authority is being formed within local authorities. It is inevitable that those affected will be concerned. We have responded to that. In keeping with the conventions of Parliament, we have tabled these amendments and there will be a full debate on them on Thursday, if we get that far, when concerns will be addressed, and people will have been able to digest the information that we have put before them. We believe that that is in keeping with the conventions and rules of Parliament that ensure that scrutiny can take place.

 

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Prepared 7 December 2004