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Mr. Shaun Woodward (St. Helens, South) (Lab): My hon. Friend touches on some important points in relation to planning, because one of the consequences of the regulations is that the regional casinos will start at different times. It is possible to envisage a regional casino opening in Blackpool in 2008, and if St Helens were fortunate enough to be chosen to be a site for a regional casino, one opening there in perhaps in 2010–11. That would give the panel reviewing the regional casinos a real problem. How would it be able to assess across that time span whether such casinos created specific problems? At the end of one three-year period, another regional casino could be just about to open.
Mrs. Humble: My hon. Friend raises an interesting point. The Government have made it clear that they want a review of the impact of regional casinos, but we need to ensure that there is a proper time frame to work out how those casinos impact on the local community. The RDA will assess the economic regeneration potential and the impact on the larger economy, and the gambling commission will consider the impact of the new casinos on the local community and whether there has been an increase in problem gambling. We need an appropriate time frame within which to ensure that that assessment can be made.
I welcome further clarification on the timing issue from my right hon. Friend the Minister. How soon will the Secretary of State liaise with her colleagues in the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister to come up with the vital new planning rules—on the change of planning use class—that councils can operate with now? What response are the councils supposed to give now to the people who are coming forward with proposals? How will the Department develop the new guidance that the local authorities will require, both to consider whether they want to develop regional, large and small casinos and how the competition is supposed to operate?
When one hears an announcement like the one we have just had, one always considers issues about which one is not sure and wants to question the Minister. I reiterate that I welcome his statement, because we have a much clearer framework within which to advance this debate. That will be important in my constituency and in many areas that are considering establishing casinos to regenerate their towns.
Mr. Richard Page (South-West Hertfordshire) (Con): On a point of order, Mr. Pike. I have been in the House for 28 years but I never had an experience like this before. Can you tell me what the status of this debate is? Will it finish at 11.25 am? Can it resume at
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2.30 pm, or can it continue until an unlimited hour? Does it have any standing at all? I should be grateful if you could tell me, because it is most unusual.
The Chairman: I have chaired many Committees, but this is the first time I have ever had to allow a debate on a dilatory motion, although I have always wanted to. The debate is in order and runs until 11.25 am, when it lapses.
Mr. Page: Unless the Government Whip moves the motion again at 2.30 pm, when we can start again.
The Chairman: The Whip can move the motion again at 2.30 pm. It lapses at 11.25 am, but if the Government Whip wishes to move it again at 2.30 pm, he can do so. Standing Orders allow only the Government to move a dilatory motion.
The motion has been moved for a specific purpose: to allow this matter to be debated. The Minister gave an assurance at a very early stage and I think that Committee members want to debate the issues. I cannot comment on the merits or otherwise of the issues—the hon. Gentleman will appreciate that—but the motion was moved for the Committee's convenience.
Mr. Moss: Further to that point of order, Mr. Pike. You rightly said that the debate that we are having, which is fundamentally important, could be resumed at 2.30 pm, but that that is at the discretion at the Government Whip. Before we decide who speaks next on this important issue, I would like to know whether this debate will be guillotined at 11.25 am or whether we can have an assurance that we will be able to continue it when we reconvene at 2.30 pm.
The Chairman: I cannot answer that question. The Government Whip and the Minister have heard the points that that hon. Gentleman has raised.
Mr. Caborn: Further to that point of order, Mr. Pike. I suggest that if hon. Members want to discuss the matter, we should do it through the usual channels.
The Chairman: That is the appropriate way forward.
Mr. Don Foster (Bath) (LD): May I say how impressed I was with the hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood, who managed in her final few remarks to totally cover her back? Earlier, she begun by asking herself a question; she wondered how all this matter would come together. She ended her remarks by saying that we now had a clearer framework in which to operate. She managed to have her cake and eat it, but I congratulate her on appropriately raising a number of significant concerns and questions to the Minister about how the new proposed way forward will work.
In the past few hours, we have been living in a pretty traumatic time in the world of politics. All sorts of changes in the Government have been taking place. No doubt, some thought that the Minister might not be with us today, but in some other position. I have now discovered why it is unlikely he would have been moved by the Prime Minister; the Minister has today made a significant U-turn. A massive change in Government policy has taken place.
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Clive Efford: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
Mr. Foster: If I may finish the point. Such a change in policy is not in accordance with the approach taken by the Minister's leader, the Prime Minister. The Committee will be well aware that the Prime Minister made that clear in his conference speech in September of last year. Echoing the words of Margaret Thatcher, he said:
''I can only go one way; I've not got a reverse gear.''
The Prime Minister may not have a reverse gear, but it is pretty clear that the Minister and, no doubt, his Secretary of State have.
Clive Efford: The hon. Gentleman seems to have a very selective memory. I recall, and he will recall, that I have expressed my concerns about the Bill in this Committee. He must concede that the Government said that they were listening and that they were prepared to make significant changes—and they have done. He should recognise that.
Mr. Foster: I think that I was recognising that by saying that it was a very significant U-turn and that the Minister has got a reverse gear. In a minute, I will say whether or not I welcome the U-turn. [Interruption.] I would like to give way to the hon. Member for West Ham (Mr. Banks), but I will refer to him in a second and, after I have done so, he may wish to intervene.
Mr. Tony Banks (West Ham) (Lab): A reverse gear is not needed to do a U-turn.
Clive Efford: The hon. Gentleman must be referring to a three-point turn, as one needs a reverse gear for that.
The Chairman: Order.
Mr. Foster: I think that I got my come-uppance properly there, although I am grateful for that intervention.
The hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford (Mr. Whittingdale) was asking why the decision was to go to eight, eight, eight. He wondered whether there was any different logic in going for, say, six, six, six, or, as my hon. Friend the Member for Colchester (Bob Russell) suggested, nine, nine, nine.
When we initially heard that there would be just the one eight, the hon. Member for West Ham made a helpful contribution and told us that perhaps the number had been chosen because it is the atomic number of oxygen, because it is a lucky number in Chinese or because, in Buddhism, there is reference to the eightfold path to spiritual progress. He ended with various other suggestions, including the fact that eight is the symbol of infinity when the figure is on its side.
In light of the hon. Gentleman's contribution, I pondered the significance of eight, eight, eight. Eventually, it seemed appropriate to look for something relevant to the issues that we are debating—namely casinos and gambling. I eventually stumbled upon the answer on a tube journey two days ago. I noticed a large advertisement for the No. 1 internet casino in the world, which is none other than www.888.com.
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The Chairman: Order. We are going a little beyond the matter under debate. We should keep to the subject.
Mr. Foster: I hear what you say, Mr. Pike, and I shall move on. However, it is not inappropriate to probe the Government on why those particular figures have been chosen. They have made a significant U-turn, and I am increasingly convinced that they are having second thoughts about the Secretary of State's belief, stated on Second Reading, that the Bill would not lead to an increase in problem gambling, and if it did, the Bill would have failed. It is increasingly clear that the Government, and certainly the Minister, are beginning to wonder whether they can rely on that belief.
I note that the Minister in his statement now refers to the need for the gambling commission during this pilot period
''to advise on whether the introduction of the new types of casino has led to an increase in problem gambling or is increasing the risk of that.''
There was also reference to the fact that we must ''reflect the fact that'' regional, large and small casinos
''will present new risks in relation to social harm.''
The Government are beginning to pick up on the fears and concerns of many people about whether a proliferation of casinos—particularly regional casinos, with their large numbers of untried and untested category A machines—would lead to an increase, and perhaps a significant increase, in problem gambling.
We will want to study the Minister's statement and any further information made available in some detail. If what is proposed is to be the way forward, I would like to ask him a number of questions about it. First, can he give the Committee an absolute assurance that he has checked that there will be no legal challenge to the proposals that he has made today? Secondly, can he assure the Committee that that advisory body that is to be set up, which will make recommendations on location, will be given guidance by the Secretary of State? In that guidance, will the crucial issue of location, which is particularly important for regional casinos, be central?
I mention that because I have on a number of occasions said that if we are to go forward with this untried, untested model of the new super-casinos, it is crucial that we take on board the advice and recommendations of the Joint Committee. It made it very clear that it believes that any regional casinos ought to be destination casinos to avoid the problem of ambient gambling.
I notice in the Minister's statement today that it will be the task of the advisory panel to give advice on
''a good range of types of location''.
I can understand the possibility of having a good range of types of location for regional casinos, all of which would meet the criteria of a destination casino. I hope that that is what the Minister means and that that is the assurance that we will get.
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I hope that the Minister is not going to tell us that we will trial regional casinos in locations that would not meet the definition. I remind him that the Joint Committee made it clear that we should consider destination casinos for regional casinos and that the Minister in another place referred to the importance of not having gambling thrust in one's face. The Minister will also be aware that many other pieces of evidence suggest the importance of ensuring that, when talking about regional casinos, we are talking about destination casinos. I hope that I can have that assurance from him.
I also hope that we can have greater clarification on—perhaps in response to the debate, but certainly as soon as possible—the point raised by the hon. Members for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood and for Surrey Heath (Mr. Hawkins) on intervention. It was suggested that regeneration had not been mentioned in the statement, but that is not true. The statement refers to regeneration. The Minister said, in reference to the criteria that will be used to judge competition, that various issues and priorities would be taken into account. I quote from his statement:
''Those might include, for example, employment and regeneration potential''.
Particularly in relation to regional casinos—I accept that there is a difference when talking about small and large casinos—I find it extremely surprising that the statement says that the criteria ''might include'' employment and regeneration. I do not deny that the Minister said on numerous occasions in Committee that the social consequences must be the No. 1 priority. However, we were also told clearly in Committee that regeneration was the second most important criterion for regional casinos. That was also made clear to the House and the public at large. However, the statement says that the criteria ''might'' have regard to regeneration. During the deliberations of the Joint Committee and the ministerial responses to those deliberations, we were constantly told of the importance of regeneration. I hope that we eventually move to a point at which no regional casino will be accepted unless there is a clearly articulated plan for regeneration benefits to come from it and that that plan will be independently audited, so that it is not just reliant on what the developers or what the local council that intends to benefit say.
Nevertheless, I also say to the Minister that the Committee needs assistance on our understanding of the planning gain, which is where the regeneration is likely to come in under what we are used to calling section 106 agreements. The problem is that my analysis of the previous planning legislation and, more recently, of the Planning and Compulsory Purchase Act 2004, shows that a local authority is not allowed to obtain excessive benefit from any development. It is certainly not allowed to take a share of the profits. I would be grateful if the Minister could explain what the legality of the regeneration that is coming forward would be, if that regeneration is as significant as the hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood hopes that it will be for Blackpool.
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