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Mr. Caborn: There are three processes, and one is through the gambling commission. The hon. Gentleman is right; the constraints of planning and section 106 agreements are well tested and could not possibly deliver the type of regeneration mentioned. If he refers to paragraphs 19, 20, 21 and 22 of the policy statement, he will see that economic gain can be achieved by local authorities through the premises licence.
Mr. Foster: I am grateful for the Minister's clarification, and I am sure that the Committee is. However, I hope that he can assure us that putting out a premises licence—for tender, effectively—so that a local authority can maximise the income will not go in any way against other legislation. I come back to my previous point: we need to be assured that there will be no legal challenges on the issue.
I—and, I suspect, other Committee members—have other concerns, which I hope will be addressed. The hon. Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood touched on the powers of local authorities. The Minister is well aware that, under clause 157, local authorities can give a blanket refusal to any casinos whatsoever for a three-year period. However, a local authority might, for whatever reason, be interested in at least exploring the possibility of having a casino in its area; the advisory panel may have recommended that one of the casinos should be located there.
In those circumstances, I hope that a local authority that had chosen not to use the clause 157 powers because it wanted to consider the possibility of having a casino would still have an absolute right to say no to a casino proposal. That absolute right of a local authority—always subject, of course, to judicial review—is crucial, but does not exist in planning law. A local authority can say no, but that can go for appeal to the Secretary of State as an additional procedure. I am sure that the Minister would acknowledge that a casino application could come forward to a local authority that was unhappy with it but that had not used clause 157 to impose a blanket ban on casinos. Such a local authority might say no to that casino, but the casino could win on appeal to the Secretary of State. That would mean that local authorities did not have an absolute power to reject a casino. I hope that we can work with the Minister and the Government to find ways to ensure that local authorities have such an absolute power.
My final point is about the demand test. The Minister will be well aware that some time ago we debated an amendment that I had tabled that proposed putting the demand test back into the system. At that time, he assured me that that was not necessary. I challenged him, and asked whether a local authority could include in their licensing policy statement their own version of a demand test. He said that yes, they could. I believed that all was well, and that we had the demand test. However, I have studied clause 145(2), and it is clear to me that that is not possible and that, somewhere along the line, we need to address how to put back into the system the demand test, which is one of local authorities' crucial powers.
I hope that we shall have the opportunity to discuss the issue of public nuisance again. When the guidance
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is drafted for the advisory panel, perhaps reference to that issue will be made. I am not the only person who is concerned about such matters; local councils and members of the public are, too. The Minister will be aware that, only a couple of weeks ago, his noble Friend Lord McIntosh gave a clear assurance to the House of Lords that public nuisance would form part of the deliberations about the location for the new casinos. Given that assurance, I hope that the Minister will give us another assurance today that matters of public nuisance will be part of the system that he is developing.
At the moment, I am not willing to say that the proposal of eight, eight, eight will receive the full support of my party. I have listed several issues about which we have considerable concerns and there are further areas about which we need more information to know how the system will work. I accept, however, that if we limit the number of regional casinos—which I welcome—it could have a knock-on effect on the number of large and small casinos that might be developed without control being placed over them.
As the hon. Member for Maldon and East Chelmsford said, I acknowledge equally that such a proposal is going against what local authorities might wish to do. However, on a first reading, it makes sense to acknowledge that any further growth in small and large casinos will be in a different climate from the current climate because there will be the added competition and implication of the regional casinos and, of course, the continuing growth of other forms of gambling, not least internet gambling. Notwithstanding their belief that they will lose power over this for a few years, local authorities might find it beneficial to have the results of the pilots that are being proposed for a few years to see what the impact will be. Although I am uncertain of the definitive position, we look favourably on the Minister's proposal, albeit with the concerns that I have expressed and the desire to obtain answers to my various questions.
Clive Efford: I welcome the Government's statement. I recognise that they said that they would be moving in that direction and I understand the problem with setting a cap. It is difficult to define whether the figure should be four, eight or so on, but we must reach a conclusion about the approach to take. On Second Reading, hon. Members on both sides of the House were worried about proliferation, especially of the large, regional casinos, and wanted a stepped approach taken towards their development.
There is a problem, however, now that we have eight, eight, eight in the location of large and small casinos. If the cap were lifted in the future, that could determine the location of the next phase of regional casinos. When applications are made about the locations of the casinos, we must be clear whether we shall look favourably in future on the possibility of their becoming regional casinos or not. We must know whether that will be a possibility. If it is, that raises all sorts of other concerns about the stage at which they become a large or a small casino. We must take into consideration the long-term possibilities of their increasing in size.
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The statement referred to competition at the planning stage. That is a difficult matter. Already, planning is fraught; it can become very litigious. Examples from America have shown that operators of casinos can be extraordinarily litigious. Some states have been tied up for years in legal wrangles with casino operators, so the guidance on how the process will be managed must be watertight and clear. At present, the planning process is started at the instigation of the developer. A developer will buy a location or reach some sort of agreement to purchase a location if planning permission is granted and then approach the local authority for planning permission.
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My hon. Friend the Member for St. Helens, South (Mr. Woodward) said that those processes may be out of sync. There may be a developer further down the road who has identified a site, and another potential developer-in-waiting. That could make it difficult for the local authority to determine how to proceed and with which partner, as a different developer may offer different things for the local community in terms of regeneration. Those things may be so desirable to the local authority that it wants to wait, rather than be forced into the process by the first developer in the queue.
There are all sorts of issues in relation to the planning process. If two or even three developers in tandem want to open casinos in the area, and there is only permission for one, how should an authority choose between them? That decision could land local authorities in a great deal of difficulty. The guidance on that must be absolutely clear and watertight.
Bob Russell: What would happen in such a case if the local authority were the landowner? Would there be regulations to ensure that local authority decisions are made without bias?
Clive Efford: It would be a fortunate local authority indeed that owned such a location, and I would wish it good luck. We must consider the ongoing benefits to the relevant area. Clearly, a local authority would have an inducement if it were to benefit from the profits.
Comments have been made about the possibility of public disorder and problems with other public services. A developer may want to make an ongoing contribution to such services. Planning permission can include obligations such as ensuring that areas are free from litter, an approach that is frequently used with the major takeaway chains in most of our high streets. That needs to be clarified.
How will the Government determine what constitutes problem gambling and what is a reasonable or unreasonable increase? We must be frank about this: there will be an increase. We are getting rid of the 24-hour rule and lifting the ban on advertising. If there is to be advertising on TV, I hope that there will be a 9 o'clock watershed. I do not want to see such advertising earlier in the evening.
Mr. Foster: Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
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Clive Efford: I am conscious of the time and of other hon. Members wanting to speak.
How will we determine what is an acceptable increase? We must be clear about the fact that there will be an increase in gambling as a result of the measures, otherwise we would be proceeding on a false premise.
My hon. Friend the Member for Blackpool, North and Fleetwood mentioned a national framework. The Government have to be fair. They must set a framework—criteria against which either regional or local planning authorities will operate when determining what benefits are sought from having a regional casino, whether large or small, in their area. If we go for the regeneration aspect—as we should—with employment and economic regeneration at its heart, we have to set a framework and clarify what we are trying to achieve. If we are to assess the impact of the casinos, we must have all or nearly all of them in place before the clock starts ticking on the three-year period. We cannot start a clock from when the first one is built and say that we will have an assessment in three years from then. We must have a clear framework.
The overlapping impact of subsequent developments on things such as problem gambling has been mentioned.
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