Inquiries Bill [Lords] |
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Mr. Leslie: It is not just a case of specific examples in the past; we have to legislate for all eventualities in future. Hypothetically speaking, of course I can imagine an incident occurring at the beginning of the long summer recess, when there would be an urgent need, if this amendment were passed, to get a resolution from Parliament. Delay could be detrimental to the establishment of an inquiry, which is why I am arguing against amendments Nos. 1 and 2. Mr. Carmichael: I hold the Minister in high regard, but that is not the strongest argument that I have heard him advance. Inquiries tend to be open-ended, and because their length cannot easily be determined, that matter should be left in the hands of the chairman of the inquiry. With the best will in the world, the suggestion of urgency in holding a retrospective inquiry does not hold water. Ministers have a lot of Executive power in order to deal with matters prospectively. Mr. Leslie: We are talking about inquiries that would, under the amendment, require resolutions of Parliament. I can think of examples of events taking place at the beginning of a summer recess, when public interest would demand that an inquiry were established and up and running as soon as possible. If inquiries were not established with due speed and efficacy, public perception might be that such issues were being kicked into the long grass. That is a serious point. Mr. Heald: There are numerous occasions when we have to pass regulations at short notice under affirmative resolution, and if that happens during the summer recess when the House is not sitting, we find ways of tackling that through our procedures. There would be no problem in setting up an inquiry, with the approval coming a few weeks later owing to a vacation; we could tackle that procedurally with no difficulty. If that is the Minister’s only significant objection, I would be more than happy to have a long discussion with him about how we could sort that out. Column Number: 12 Mr. Leslie: I am always happy to have long discussions with the hon. Gentleman, but I am not sure which parliamentary procedure he is talking about and how Parliament could pass resolutions during a recess. That would be quite difficult, given the nature of the drafting of amendments Nos. 1 and 2, which would require full parliamentary approval. That is one reason why I doubt that the amendments are worth while. There are better ways of involving Parliament in debate and discussion about establishing inquiries. As I said earlier, sometimes the formality of the resolution is not the best way to secure parliamentary involvement. A statement is a better way of triggering interest and debate in Parliament. We want to improve the legislative arrangements dealing with parliamentary involvement and to move to a level that is appropriate to all statutory inquiries, and not just those under the 1921 Act. For those reasons, amendments Nos. 1 and 2 would not be a good idea. 10 amAmendments Nos. 6, 12 and 13 concern the nature of the statement that is to be made to Parliament and the fact that it should made orally in all circumstances. In some instances, Parliament will want to debate the setting up of an inquiry on the Floor of the House, but not all inquiries will warrant that attention. I cited the example of the Neale inquiry, which attracted a meagre attendance in the House. In many ways, that could be seen to have sent undesirable signals to those with a particular interest in the inquiry. The Bill allows for both oral and written statements because the circumstances will differ for each inquiry. Incidentally, the statements would not necessarily be only about the commencement of an inquiry, but about variations during the process of an inquiry. If there were a suspension, for example, because of criminal prosecutions or other legal processes, that would not always merit a full, oral statement to the House of Commons. I shall never persuade Opposition Members that there could be a scenario about which they would not want a full oral statement to be made to the House of Commons, but we must take into account parliamentary time and the need to have the appropriate debate for the appropriate subject. That is why the Bill takes such a flexible approach. Of course, nothing will stop hon. Members debating issues that they want to explore. If the circumstances are straightforward, they can raise matters for debate through the usual mechanisms and press Mr. Speaker to encourage Ministers to make an oral statement or to notify the House of matters through other means. Parliament has plenty of ways in which to bring Ministers to account for decisions that have been made. That is why it would not be right to fix in place oral statements for all occasions. That is my main argument against the group of amendments. Mr. Heald: Is the Minister about to deal with amendments Nos. 12 and 13 or has he concluded his speech? Column Number: 13 Mr. Leslie: Essentially, I did. My response concerned oral statements. Mr. Heald: The Minister’s main argument seemed to be that, without the amendments, Parliament could still play a role in approving the setting up of inquiries and the way in which they are pursued. I am not satisfied with that response. How does the hon. Gentleman propose that that will happen? He referred to the Adjournment debate obtained by my right hon. Friend the Member for Richmond, Yorks about the inquiry under the National Health Service Act 1977 into Mr. Neale in Yorkshire. The fact that my right hon. Friend obtained that Adjournment debate was a random chance; it is a shuffle. Sometimes we are lucky to obtain such a debate and sometimes we are not. In one or two instances, Mr. Speaker may agree to give us a debate, but that is not guaranteed. We have no right to it; it is a matter of luck or a person’s persuasive powers. An Opposition day is another possible route. Let us say that the matter was not one about which the official Opposition—who are delegated most of the Opposition days—were particularly concerned. For example, there was some controversy about a forthcoming inquiry that the Government have promised, which is of interest to hon. Members who represent Northern Ireland constituencies. Given how little time is available to them on the Floor of the House, could they really force an Opposition day debate in such circumstances? Is the Minister promising to give Government time to such matters? No. Whether such a debate would happen is not a moot point. Unless some provision is made under the Bill that requires parliamentary approval, it is most uncertain whether a debate would be held on such matters at all. The Minister said that many inquiries are held into matters of second-order importance. He referred to the Mr. Neale, Clifford Ayling and the Michael Kerr inquiries and said that such inquiries did not necessarily need a debate. I shall make two points on that. Those inquiries were quite important, but let us say that there was an inquiry of less importance. Should we not then examine the question that Lord Justice Salmon raised: is there really a case for a public inquiry? If the matter is so minor that the Minister feels that it does not deserve even a debate in the House of Commons, is it of such public concern that it warrants a public inquiry? Turning to the inquiries mentioned by the Minister, I think that the cases of alleged medical negligence and misconduct to which he referred raised an important series of issues that Parliament should have debated. It was very important that those allegations were thoroughly examined, and the same is true of the Shipman inquiry. It would have been a good thing if Parliament had been required to debate those issues. The Minister says that only four MPs attended the debate on Mr. Neale’s case, but one has only to think of Government Adjournment debates to see that there
Saying that it could be awkward to have to do what is proposed in the recess was a bit feeble. We have to pass laws in the recess and we manage to do so because we have procedures that enable us to do the formal parliamentary approval later. I would be perfectly happy to talk to the Minister about agreeing to have the approval of the setting up of an inquiry take place at a later date if setting it up was a matter of urgency in the recess. We can certainly reach an accommodation on that, but it is a pity that it has to be by virtue of work done at the other end of the building. When MPs make reasonable suggestions at this end, it is a rather sad and pitiful reflection on the Government that we then have to go through processes whereby the measure goes to the other end of the building, amendments are tabled there and then they come back here, and that amendments are often accepted there even though they were denied here. Should Ministers not consider more carefully arguments advanced in the House of Commons? Is not the Minister saying overall that his principle as far as parliamentary scrutiny is concerned is, “If in doubt, cut it out”? That was a great maxim of surgeons at one time. If he is saying that, does he really think that it fits in with what we are trying to achieve in our parliamentary democracy? If he is saying that there is a class of cases in which approving the inquiry should not be the subject of resolutions of the House, or in which an oral statement might not be required but a written statement could be made, why will he not propose that the general rule is that there will be an oral statement or a parliamentary debate on resolutions, but that agreement can be reached between the parties by the usual channels not to have that in certain cases? It seems sad that we have to lose the ability to debate such matters in all cases and that we are left like humble supplicants saying to the Minister, “Oh, could we please have a debate about this inquiry?”, and hoping that we will get it. If we do not, we have to try to persuade Mr. Speaker, and if that does not work, we have to go for a ballot. Why can we not say that Parliament is entitled to debate such matters unless the parties agree in the House that that is not necessary? I would have thought that we could find such a way forward. Interestingly, I recently visited the Finnish Parliament, which works on a much more consensual basis. It seems to find the time and the ability to debate quite a lot of issues on a consensual basis without the Government feeling that they have to act in a heavy-handed way the whole time. Therefore, I do not accept what the Minister has said so far. I hope that he will
Question put, That the amendment be made:— The Committee divided: Ayes 4, Noes 6. [Division No. 1] AYES Atkinson, Mr. PeterCarmichael, Mr. Alistair Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan Heald, Mr. Oliver
NOES Davies, GeraintHall, Mr. Mike Leslie, Mr. Christopher Pound, Mr. Stephen Prentice, Bridget Rooney, Mr. Terry Question accordingly negatived. Mrs. Campbell: I beg to move amendment No. 35, in clause 1, page 1, line 3, at beginning insert
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss new clause 1—Inquiry pursuant to resolution of both Houses of Parliament—
Mrs. Campbell: I am a member of the Select Committee on Public Administration, which discussed the Bill at length. Our discussions were preceded by an investigation here and in the United States to discover the best form of conducting inquiries. The Public Administration Committee’s conclusion was that since the 1921 Act, Parliament had to a large extent contracted out its responsibility to conduct inquiries. However, the 1921 Act still gives Parliament a role relating to Ministers’ conduct. It is important not to confuse the word “conduct” with “misconduct”, because there is a role for Parliament to examine the conduct of Ministers not when there has been misconduct but when their conduct is considered to be politically sensitive. Column Number: 16 The Select Committee felt that since the 1921 Act, in a gradual process that has continued for many years, Parliament had relinquished its responsibility for, and its involvement in, inquiries. Many members felt that it was time for Parliament to grasp the reins and take back some control of the inquiry process, especially for inquiries into politically sensitive matters. We suggest that there should be a parliamentary commission of inquiry, perhaps modelled on Privy Council inquiries such as the Falklands review in 1983 or the Butler inquiry. The new clause would address two distinct but complementary issues. The first is the extent of parliamentary involvement in some, but not all, inquiries and the second is the form that they should take. I confess that the proposal was suggested by the Select Committee, not by me, although I am the only member who signed it. The new clause would provide for inquiries into the conduct of Ministers of the Crown by means of an Order in Council, subject to a resolution of both Houses. That addresses the first issue, which is parliamentary involvement. 10.15 amThe new clause suggests that Parliament should have a role in deciding the form that the inquiry takes, and should be able to debate and decide on
already passed by the House. Many of the arguments were explored in the previous debate, and I do not want to spend a long time going through many of them again. I understand that the Government remain opposed to the Committee’s proposals for amending the Bill and using parliamentary commissions. It is true that my amendment and new clause would make it mandatory for Ministers to call an inquiry once a parliamentary resolution was passed. Also, the Government have complained that my proposals are ambiguous, in that there would still be pressure for inquiries from those hoping to influence terms of reference or membership; however, that could be overcome by parliamentary debate. It is true that the proposals may slightly delay the setting up of an inquiry, but I am sure that there are parliamentary procedures that could be used to overcome the delays that would occur if the House refused to pass the necessary resolutions or wished to argue about them. The Government have also argued that the proposals are excessive, in that they go beyond the provisions of the 1921 Act. I am surprised that the Government have not taken this opportunity to do something more radical than simply tidy up the legislation. Baroness Ashton said in a letter to the Committee:
Column Number: 17 is designed to provide a single, UK wide framework that would be suitable for any future statutory inquiry into events that have caused public concern.” If we accept that that is what the Bill is about, we are missing an opportunity to involve Parliament in the inquiry process in a way that it has not been involved since the 1921 Act. In proposing the new clause, I suggest that Parliament be involved in the examination of ministerial conduct, because I believe that that is our role. We are here to hold the Executive to account, and we would be relinquishing that responsibility if we allowed the Bill to be passed in its current form. I shall listen carefully to what the Minister and Opposition Members have to say, and I hope to reply to some of their arguments. Mr. Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon) (Con): Despite the eloquent and thorough attempt of my hon. Friend the Member for North-East Hertfordshire to persuade the Government to increase the role of Parliament in inquiries, they have turned down our party’s amendments so far. In that context, through her alternative, the hon. Member for Cambridge (Mrs. Campbell) has given us the opportunity to debate the Public Administration Committee proposals addressing the serious imbalance between the powers of the Executive and Parliament contained in the Bill. As my hon. Friend said, the Bill contains extensive ministerial powers that could prejudice the independence of an inquiry and the very argument about the separation of powers that the Government pushed so heavily during the passage of the Constitutional Reform Bill. It seems that the Government’s constant hunger for ever-increasing powers in the hands of the Executive has unfortunately, but perhaps inevitably, entered the arena of public inquiries—a context where excessive ministerial powers could make the very exercise of the inquiry redundant through potentially politicised findings and inadequate opportunities for the views of the public to be expressed. Parliament provides a channel through which those views may be heard, yet the Bill all but closes off that channel. My hon. Friend presented the Conservative solution to the democratic deficit. A resolution should be passed in Parliament each and every time an inquiry is launched under the terms of the Bill, but it seems clear that the Government have not, and may be unlikely to, accept such proposals. That being the case, we will support the hon. Member for Cambridge in her sensible though less far-reaching alternative to obligatory parliamentary involvement. Amendment No. 35 and new clause 1 provide a process by which any inquiries that Parliament finds to be of public importance will be set up and regulated by Her Majesty through Orders in Council. The hon. Lady explained that the Privy Council would decide on the terms of reference, the panel, any assessors, future modifications and suspension, or premature ending of the inquiry where appropriate. That solution to the parliamentary problem is attractive on two counts. First, while it is less than we would wish to see, it would ensure more parliamentary involvement. It is hoped that that role would be given to Parliament when it is
It is true that the 1921 Act was rarely used, but perhaps the amendment would provide the appropriate balance between ministerial accountability to Parliament and the pressures on Parliament’s timetable. Clearly, debate will ensue over whether an inquiry will be found to be of public importance. It is a line that no person would be particularly keen to draw, however the hon. Lady has avoided that difficult definition by leaving it to Parliament or the relevant Assembly to decide on a case-by-case basis. In the context, that is probably the right thing to do. Would the debate over the public importance of a future inquiry negate the apparent advantage of not including Parliament in each and every decision to launch an inquiry? Quite possibly so. It is feasible that a Minister would argue that each inquiry is of public importance in an attempt to prove to the individual voters involved in each inquiry’s facts and scenarios that he takes their case seriously. The added debate about the categorisation of the inquiry could take up more of Parliament’s time before anyone has considered the terms of reference or panel members. We accept that that would need to be addressed. Further, the freedom with which the Privy Council would dictate how the inquiry was run should perhaps be tempered to take account of the chairman’s intimate knowledge of how the inquiry is proceeding. We welcome the parliamentary legitimacy given to those decisions, albeit in a diluted form, and we merely suggest that some consultation with the chairman should be included to recognise his on-the-ground awareness of all issues affecting the inquiry. There are problems with the amendment that need to be addressed, but in principle we shall support it as an alternative to our preferred solution, which would require more parliamentary involvement in every inquiry. After hearing the Minister’s response, the hon. Lady will have to consider whether the amendment should be put to the vote. I hope that she decides to do that. If she does not, and unless we receive a clear message from the Minister about a change of mind, the Conservative Opposition will request a vote. The hon. Lady may be considering bringing back her amendment on Report, but if we are to have a May election, which is a possibility, the chances of the Bill having a Report stage are slim. That is why I ask that she makes her principles stand. She will have our support on that. Mr. Carmichael: There is little that I can add to what the hon. Members for Cambridge and for Huntingdon (Mr. Djanogly) have said. I cannot share the hon. Lady’s surprise that the Government are not prepared to take radical action. That has been pretty much the story of the past eight years. She does, however, provide an interesting interface between the Select Committee system and the Standing Committee system. In tabling her amendment, she has done the Committee a great service. Column Number: 19 As the hon. Member for Huntingdon pointed out, the hon. Lady wants to create a new system, and consequential amendments would have to be made as a result. I do not take that as a criticism. That is exactly the role of Committees such as this. She starts from the best of principles: that there should be parliamentary involvement. She has introduced that in a way that is, in essence, workable. I hope that, as the hon. Gentleman says, she sticks to her guns. This is one of the few occasions on which we can express a view on this issue. I would certainly be with her. Mr. Peter Atkinson (Hexham) (Con): Whether or not the hon. Member for Cambridge sticks to her guns, she has certainly done the Committee a favour by moving the amendment. I want to flag up its importance in relation to the outbreak of foot and mouth disease, which so badly afflicted my constituency. It started there and ended there about a year later. It caused devastation to the landscape and to many farmers’ livelihoods. The Government set up the “Lesson Learnt” inquiry, which was under their terms and looked at what could be done to prevent a similar outbreak in future. That was perfectly sensible, but they steadfastly refused to hold an inquiry into why the outbreak happened and whether anyone was derelict in their duty and responsible for the outbreak spreading at the rate it did. At the time, serious allegations were made against Ministers. I have no idea whether they were founded or unfounded, but because we were approaching the 2001 election which was scheduled for May—it subsequently had to be postponed for a month—it was suggested that they deliberately failed to act with due diligence and speed so that the original May deadline would not be missed. That was a serious allegation. If it were true, it would have meant that many billions of pounds were wasted and many livelihoods ruined because Ministers, for political purposes, did not act quickly. I stress that there is no evidence that Ministers did that, but a proper inquiry would have identified the truth. Clearly, there were other issues that never came out as a result of having no proper inquiry. First, there were serious allegations that a Ministry vet had inspected the farm where the outbreak occurred and had passed it as satisfactory, despite the visible evidence to the contrary. That was never properly explained, although some video evidence recently came to light on the state of the farm, which reinforces the view that it was inadequately inspected. Had an inquiry taken place, it would have enabled farmers who lost their livelihoods to sue in a class action. The whole issue of the treatment of foot and mouth would have been very much better if Parliament could have had a say and instigated a proper inquiry. Mr. Heald: Does my hon. Friend agree that it was shameful that this Parliament did not hold an inquiry? Even the European Parliament had a form of inquiry into part of it, yet we did not when it was a matter of such concern to so many colleagues. Column Number: 20 |
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