Drugs Bill

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Standing Committee F

Thursday 3 February 2005

The Committee consisted of the following Members:

Chairman: Chairmen: Mr. Roger Gale, †Mr. Eric Illsley

†Bellingham, Mr. Henry (North-West Norfolk) (Con)

†Blunt, Mr. Crispin (Reigate) (Con)

†Carmichael, Mr. Alistair (Orkney and Shetland) (LD)

†Clapham, Mr. Michael (Barnsley, West and Penistone) (Lab)

†Flint, Caroline (Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department)

†Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)

†Harris, Mr. Tom (Glasgow, Cathcart) (Lab)

†Heppell, Mr. John (Lord Commissioner of Her Majesty's Treasury)

†Iddon, Dr. Brian (Bolton, South-East) (Lab)

†Joyce, Mr. Eric (Falkirk, West) (Lab)

†Mann, John (Bassetlaw) (Lab)

Oaten, Mr. Mark (Winchester) (LD)

†Pope, Mr. Greg (Hyndburn) (Lab)

†Taylor, Ms Dari (Stockton, South) (Lab)

Todd, Mr. Mark (South Derbyshire) (Lab)

†Watkinson, Angela (Upminster) (Con)

Miss Sian Jones, Committee Clerk

† attended the Committee

(Afternoon)

[Mr. Roger Gale in the Chair]

Drugs Bill

Clause 18

Orders under this Part and guidance

2.30 pm

The Chairman: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. There might be one or more Divisions in the House this afternoon. That will inevitably intrude upon the time available for debate, and a considerable amount remains to be done. I mention that because, as things stand, there is no injury time for suspensions for Divisions, and the Committee will therefore have to finish its work by 5.30 pm.

It is open to the Committee, by arrangement through the usual channels—and, of course, in discussion with the Chairman—to extend the sitting later into the evening to compensate for time lost during Divisions. I say that simply to inform the Committee. It is not an instruction; I simply remind the Committee of the present situation.

Clause 18

Orders under this Part and guidance

Question proposed [this day], That the clause stand part of the Bill.

Question again proposed.

Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): The clause deals with orders and guidance. An enormous amount of the substance of the Bill will be enacted through order and secondary legislation. It falls to me to question the Minister about subsection (2), which makes two provisions—first, that orders may

''make different provision for different police areas''

and, secondly, for those

''who have not attained the age of 18 to attend . . . an initial assessment or a follow-up assessment''.

How will the provision for different police areas be varied? Will persons under the age of 18 fall within the Bill's provisions in some police areas, but not others? That is my primary concern.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Caroline Flint): I shall deal first with the question of age. Clause 18 provides that any order made by the Secretary of State under clauses 9(4) and 10(5) to amend the age at which persons may be required to attend the initial and follow-up assessments must be approved by resolution of both Houses. That will allow the power to require persons to attend such assessments to be extended to young people if it is considered necessary and appropriate. It also requires the police and others carrying out assessments to have regard to any guidance issued by the Secretary of State under part 3 when exercising any
 
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functions under that part. That will ensure that note is taken of any additional safeguards thought necessary to protect the rights of those affected by the provisions.

The hon. Lady is, I hope, aware that we are piloting drug testing on charge, and voluntary arrest referral for young people, which comes in at a later stage than for adults. We may want to go down that route in future, so we are considering the emerging findings of those pilot schemes to see whether the same requirements are necessary for younger people as for older people.

The figures on testing, for example, are telling us whether the amount of class A drugs showing up on testing is comparable to adult testing. It will allow us better to think how we might plan the expansion of testing and assessment for young people. It is not that we do not think it important, but work on testing adults is further advanced, and we want to ensure that the Bill leaves open the opportunity to expand. As we are talking about young people under the age of 18, we think it appropriate that such provisions should be discussed by Parliament. As during our debates over the past few weeks, people will probably want to discuss capacity, and what support and treatment is available. I hope that that answer satisfies the hon. Lady.

The other question was about the reference to different police areas. The hon. Lady is probably aware that the drug intervention programme focuses on areas with the highest levels of acquisitive crime linked to drug misuse that we can identify. Although the programme is not yet available throughout the country, we have identified the basic command unit areas that have the most problems in dealing with such crimes and the associated drug taking. That will allow us to include other police areas as and when appropriate, based on need and on their capacity to deliver. I hope that reassures the hon. Lady.

Mrs. Gillan: That reassures me, but will the Minister further reassure me that she looks forward eventually to having uniformity of provision—necessity driven, of course—across all police areas, rather than the current patchy provision?

Caroline Flint: I think that as necessity drives, which is what is important, we would like to see further opportunities to expand what is already a good foundation for tackling drugs and crime. We must, however, look at the necessity for that because we must justify the public expenditure and ensure that there is the capacity to deliver. We are building capacity, reducing waiting times and making sure that people get appropriate treatment that works.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 20

Anti-social behaviour orders:

intervention orders

Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
 
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Mrs. Gillan: We went through clause 19 so quickly that I was not able to ask my question about a suitably qualified person—the Minister will have to write to me. I wanted to know when the specifications will be forthcoming from the Secretary of State.

I move swiftly on to clause 20, which deals with antisocial behaviour orders. My right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) made most of the points that I wish to make in his opening address on Second Reading. I want to give the Minister the opportunity to pick up on those points. A new order can be made alongside an ASBO when drug misuse has been a cause of the behaviour that led to the ASBO being imposed.

Statistics on page 27 of the Home Office publication, ''Perceptions and experience of antisocial behaviour: findings from the 2003/2004 British Crime Survey'', show that 25 per cent. of people experience drug-related incidents of antisocial behaviour. Paragraph 56 of the explanatory notes shows the size of that problem. Some 15 million incidents fall into that category. I believe that there could be 4 million acts of drug-related antisocial behaviour annually.

Paragraph 56 states that

''it is estimated that this proposal will produce some 100 orders per year, resulting in an annual assessment and treatment cost of approximately £0.37 million. The Criminal Justice System costs are minimal.''

That means that one in 40,000 drug related antisocial incidents will be picked up by the provision, so how effective does the Minister envisage the remedy will be? The measure will also be delayed until April 2006, and I would like some explanation of why it will take that long. As my right hon. Friend the Member for Haltemprice and Howden said, it makes the provision meaningless for another 15 months, which is a fairly long time. I hope that the Minister will address those points, which were, rightly, raised on Second Reading.

Caroline Flint: The clause deals with antisocial behaviour orders, as set out in the Crime and Disorder Act 1998. ASBOs address the antisocial behaviour of adults, rather than that of young people, for which there are already measures in place. ASBOs are about what one should not do—they impose a curfew, or state that a person should not go to a particular area—whereas the conditions that we are discussing are about what people should do. There is already a provision for young people. That might go some way towards explaining the total number of incidents of antisocial behaviour by adults and young people.

We do not want to miss the opportunity to further the work that we are doing on antisocial behaviour, and to consider how we can develop a framework that includes what adults could do—for instance, if drugs are involved, that issue should be addressed. Some adults may be covered by other provisions. Sometimes, but not exclusively, adults involved in antisocial behaviour are arrested—and possibly charged—under other parts of the criminal justice system. In such cases, they are covered by other arrangements for testing and assessment.
 
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Mrs. Gillan: In that case, what about the position on equal treatment of alcohol misusers on ASBOs, in whose cases the drinking is shown to be the cause of the antisocial behaviour?

Caroline Flint: That is an important factor. The hon. Lady will be aware that the Government are doing a great deal to tackle the disorder on our streets that is associated with alcohol. We have, for example, raised the fixed penalty from £40 to £80—I hope that that figure is correct—and that is beginning to bite. It is a useful measure—if somebody goes out, not only on Friday or Saturday but on any night of the week, and decides to drink alcohol to excess, it is a sharp sanction that can be implemented quickly. The police prefer to issue fixed penalty notices than to take somebody to the station.

Before an ASBO is issued, we expect to see a sustained period of antisocial behaviour that cannot be dealt with by fixed penalty notices. It does not apply to somebody who is merely picked up, drunk, on one Saturday night; there have to be other factors. That goes for other antisocial behaviour as well. I hear what the hon. Lady is saying about alcohol, and she will be aware that we are considering how we can develop our services for dealing with drug treatment—particularly those for illegal drugs—and how we can better bring them together with measures on alcohol. A number of drug action teams have become drug and alcohol action teams. We must try to deal with the issue without making any commitments that we cannot meet. We chose April 2006 because we need to have time to set up the mechanisms to enable the measure to work in communities. However, we wanted to take the opportunity offered by the Bill to obtain the support in principle for the measure. That will allow us to go back into communities to develop the services.

For now, the powers in respect of drug-related antisocial behaviour will be attached to ASBOs. We shall keep the measure under review and the Secretary of State will have the power to add other matters, as appropriate. In general, ASBOs are used for other antisocial behaviour offences, not just drugs. A lot of people who do not necessarily have a drug problem commit antisocial offences in the community. The Home Office and the Department of Health have worked together on the matter and we believe, despite the figures quoted by the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham, that the measure will be used relatively rarely, given what I have said about young people being covered in other ways. In order to get it right, we need a lead-in time, working with agencies across Government, to work up what will be done in practice. We have an opportunity to ensure that the new civil order is helpful. I hope that we can develop it; it is about having a carrot and stick, specifying what people should and cannot do, and getting to the underlying reasons behind antisocial behaviour, although drugs are not always the reason.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause 20 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
 
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Prepared 3 February 2005