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Mr. Evans: I shall be brief, and speak to just a couple of the amendments. In particular, I shall refer to amendment No. 48, which deals with the statutory undertakers and on which I should like to get some information from the Minister.
I would love to declare how many shares I now own in all these utilities, but I do not have any, although I can refer to a not-very-profitable shop in Swansea, which has a lane behind it. Now and then people dump rubbish there, and people may use it at night to take illegal substances from time to time. When I worked in the shop, there used to be some kids who would go back there to sniff glue. That was in the 1970s and early 1980s. Fortunately, that does not happen these days, but such lanes are perfect examples of places where a gating order could be made at some stage, if it was deemed that crime or persistent dumping of rubbish was taking place there.
What I want to know about amendment No. 48 is how utilities will be dealt with. The amendment marries in with amendments Nos. 41 and 42, which deal with the publicity given to gates that are to be erected. I assume that, in many cases, these will actually be physical gates that are there to prevent not just vehicles but people from gaining access to the alley in question. In some cases, we may be talking just about a small ramp to stop vehicles, but in others we will be talking about physical gates to prevent the dumping of refuse or access by the general public.
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Many subsections of clause 2 stipulate that some of the gates may operate only at certain times of the day. The gates will certainly not impede any normal business, and that is absolutely right. However, there must be proper signage on the gates to indicate who the key holder is, for instance, in case somebody else wants access to the lane or highway for normal purposes.
When the gates are closed at night and there is an emergency such as a fire, the emergency services will need access to that lane or highway, and I assume that they will be able to have it. In certain parts of the country there may be a lot of alleyways and gating orders, and the emergency services have to have access through the gates somehow or other. I can only assume that a procedure will be set down so that that can be done. If there was a fire, people could not go through 200 sets of keys to ascertain which was the right one for a particular area.
Would all emergency vehicles have the keys? A lot of ambulances, for instance, are not at depots any more, but are dotted all over the place so that they can access emergencies more easily. This issue needs to be spelled out a little more. There should be proper signage and a telephone number, or at least some information so that people know who has the key for the gates.
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I have looked at clause 2, but I cannot see anything about who would pay for the gates. In my constituency, there are many lanes between back-to-back houses, and I am not certain about who owns those lanes. Perhaps the householders each own bits of them. If the local authority said that those lanes should have gates and it did not own the houses—I suspect that these days there are few areas with local authority housing only; many such houses have been sold—who would have the responsibility for the erection, payment and maintenance of the gates? Once they are erected, they have to be kept in good order because they must be opened and closed. I hope that the Minister will say something about that issue.
However, generally I am in favour of the gating requirements, because in some areas of the country, lanes and minor highways are used for criminal purposes or for the dumping of refuse, which must be a constant pain for the people who live around them. One such area in Samlesbury springs to mind immediately. It is part of the public highway and a lot of trucks use it because there is a huge lay-by, shielded by a high hedge. Local residents live on a farm just off it, and they have put up with the most awful mess from people dumping rubbish, which attracts rats and other vermin. Those people are at their wits' end and are trying to get the lane closed. There has been negotiation with one of the local councillors and Lancashire county council. That area might be perfectly suited to the gating orders, which might stop the dumping of refuse and improve the quality of life—that is what this Bill is supposed to do—for the people living in that area.
Alun Michael: I am grateful to Committee members for raising a number of issues that are important to the implementation of this part of the Bill. From the start, I should make it clear that the Bill does some things but not others. The hon. Member for Guildford ranged a little wide in some of her aspirations; property over land, commoning and ransom strips are all interesting issues with which I have had to deal, but the clause has a specific purpose. I am sorry to have to disappoint the hon. Lady, but the clause is not a magic wand or a panacea. We do not want to limit access when there is no need to do so. From the comments made, I take it that that aspiration would be shared on both sides of the Committee. Matters such as police maps being updated seem to be local problems, although I share her wish for greater and better use of geographical information systems; I have done a lot of work on that.
It is inconceivable that the police would not be involved in a gating proposal and in its execution. Although communication between authorities is an issue in general terms, it would not be made better or worse in these circumstances. The likelihood is that, just as these powers are sought by police and local authorities, the particular alley-gating proposals are likely to be prepared by—or even at the instigation of—the police as well as local residents.
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Sue Doughty: I am sure that the police will be involved, but there is a great deal of difference between a mapping department and the people who make the decision. There is also a lot of duplication of information, and quite often decisions are made by the crime and disorder reduction partnership strategy, so in principle that part of the police are saying, ''Yes, we are keen on that.'' I have discussed this matter extensively with my local police force and with the people responsible for IT; they agreed that there is a potential problem with there being so much duplication. It is hard to get hold of information and to know that it is there. Everybody is keeping the same information. There is a problem with making sure that the control rooms have it when things have been put in place.
Alun Michael: With the greatest respect, I was acknowledging the statement of the blindingly obvious that the hon. Lady has reinforced, which is that if organisations do not get their act together in exchanging information and making sure that it is available to those at the operational end of things, they should be castigated. However, we cannot change that as we deal with this clause, which specifically relates to alley gating. If those problems exist, they need to be tackled, but this clause will not make them any worse. Indeed, one can virtually guarantee that because of the interest that the police will have taken at the local level, they will be aware of that, and I would be very surprised if they were not as enthusiastic as anybody else to ensure that an order is recorded on everybody's system immediately it is put in place.
Amendments Nos. 2 and 31 are seeking clarity about what would amount to evidence of the need for alley gating, and how to make sure that it is reasonable and proportionate. Such an issue needs to be raised at this stage. However, the Bill is carefully drafted to allow flexibility for local decision making. For instance, proposed new section 129B(2) says:
''A gating order may in particular—
(a) restrict the public right of way at all times, or in respect of such times, days or periods as may be specified in the order;
(b) exclude persons of a description specified in the order from the effect of the restriction.''
That is just one of many parts of the Bill that allows flexibility in the order to reflect the circumstances and evidence that has led to the decision that an order is necessary.
Miss McIntosh: I am listening carefully to the Minister, but there is a difference in this regard. The statutory authorities have statutory and contractual obligations, whether in relation to the emergency services or utility companies. Could not there be a statutory consultation on a gating order?
Alun Michael: The hon. Lady is addressing a different point to the one that I was just answering. I
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was saying that there are many provisions allowing flexibility for local circumstances to be addressed and for a specifically tailored order to be made that fits the local requirements. The questions that have been asked illustrate the variations that might arise, including agricultural land adjoining urban land, land adjoining highways, and land on estates or at the back of business premises, and so on.
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It would be a mistake to be too specific in the clauses of the Bill and make it difficult for the appropriate circumstances to be designed locally on the basis of the evidence.
It being twenty-five minutes past Eleven o'clock, The Chairman adjourned the Committee without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
Adjourned till this day at half-past Two o'clock.
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