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Alun Michael: The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds acknowledged that the present arrangements are costly and difficult and he said that some of his amendments were probing amendments. The hon. Member for Ludlow gave us the opportunity to respond to the concerns he raised and was not antagonistic to the results that my party is trying to achieve. I am sure that he will examine my response with his usual searching gaze. Both contributions have been helpful in teasing out our intentions and the best way of achieving the outcomes we seek.
Matthew Green: I meant to say that although this is a probing amendment, it uses exactly the same wording as section 3 of the Dog Fouling (Scotland) Act 2003, which provides for exceptions to the poop scoop offence in section 1.
Alun Michael: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for explaining the wording of his amendment. I am sure that it will help Committee members.
It may be helpful if I set the clause in the context of the various measures that apply to dogs. Most of the provisions in this part of the Bill concern our proposals for a new system of dog control orders to replace the existing dog byelaw arrangements. The explanatory notes say that the current arrangements are costly and complicated to administer. They incur costs both for local government and for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and therefore central Government. That is why we propose to replace that system with a new system of dog control orders modelled on the present arrangements for dealing with fouling by dogs that were introduced in the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996, under which there is an offence of dog fouling that can be applied by local authorities by order in relation to designated land in their areas.
The Bill repeals the provisions of the 1996 Act because it would be confusing for authorities and members of the public to have two sets of provisions in
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existence at the same time. Although the repeal was not specifically consulted on, the 1996 Act is the basis of the new regime and was consulted upon widely.
Similarly, under the new system, we propose that specific offences should be set out in regulations. Local authorities will provide for those offences to apply on designated land in their areas. The system will also be available to parish and town councils, which, although they can make byelaws, cannot designate land to deal with dog fouling. It is an expression of confidence in the capacity of parish and town councils that they should be able to undertake this sort of work where they wish. Overall, the new system will be simpler to operate and will provide greater certainty for everybody concerned. Clause 68 also deals with stray dogs.
The hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds kindly referred to the letter that I have made available to members of the Committee. A comprehensive briefing was sent to the Committee by the Kennel Club that raised several points about such measures. I am pleased to say that, a few days ago, I had a useful meeting with the Kennel Club and the Dogs Trust and I have made available a copy of the letter that I sent to the Kennel Club after that meeting. At the meeting, both organisations made it clear that they welcomed in principle the proposals for dog control measures. We agreed with their concerns about such matters and I assured them that the issues they raised would be dealt with under regulations and guidance. I undertook to ensure that they are fully consulted on such matters before they are put in place. We can discuss their concerns about the provisions for stray dogs when we reach the relevant clause.
The Kennel Club and the Dogs Trust made it clear that they were, in principle, in favour of the change that we are proposing provided that adequate resources are made available. Of course, the transfer of resources is necessary under the new burdens procedures, which is currently under discussion. Although I cannot give an assurance on that point at this stage, I am sure that I shall be able to in due course. Again, we shall come to that matter when we reach the relevant clause.
It is worth my pointing to the fact that there is an important relationship between legislation and other actions that are taken to change behaviour. I referred to dog fouling when we were discussing litter and other issues during our debates last week. I drew attention to the work of ENCAMS in designing campaigns that can be taken up locally and which I am certain have contributed considerably to the reduction in the amount of dog fouling, which is now measurable by the comparisons that are undertaken year on year, to which I have referred.
It is in that context that I come to the specific amendments. I shall not be too harsh, given the fact that the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds said that they were drafted to draw out a response to some particular points. I was not clear when reading the amendment why he was seeking to retain a separate
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system for dog fouling under amendment No. 107. The proposed system of dog control orders is modelled on the current system for dog fouling, but it will simplify matters for both enforcement authorities and dog owners by having a single regime for all dog offences. I cannot see the benefit of having two sets of rules, not one. A further key problem with the amendment is that existing legislation on dog fouling cannot be used by parish councils, whereas parish councils will be able to take action against dog fouling under the dog control system.
Amendments Nos. 100 and 101 are unnecessary. I give the Committee an absolute assurance that we will consult fully on the draft regulations to be made under the clause, so there is no need to single out particular aspects of the regulations in such a way. As for amendment No. 102, it is for the authority making the order to determine whether a dog control order is needed. Again, I assure the Committee that we will provide guidance on the circumstances in which a district or parish council should consider making a dog control order, but it is important that such bodies can take full account of local conditions. Guidance points them in the direction, but allows local decision making to take place. I am sure that that is the right approach.
This is not an issue on which it would be helpful for central Government to set rigid controls on the exercise of powers by local authorities. Nevertheless, clause 56(4) provides the power for central Government to do so should that prove necessary in future. There is therefore that failsafe mechanism.
For the same reason, I do not believe that the appeal system proposed under amendment No. 103 is needed. The rules of the new system will be clear, and district and parish councils will need to follow the set procedures and the model orders that will be included in the regulations. Failure to do so will invalidate the orders. Any appeal that focuses on the merits of the case for the order would involve substituting the views of an appeal body for those of the responsible council, and there is not a case for that. A decision that was manifestly unreasonable or that was not made following the correct formalities could still be challenged using the usual judicial remedies.
As for amendment No. 110, I accept the points made by the hon. Member for Ludlow. They can be taken account of in a way that is more appropriate and flexible than putting such matters into the Bill. I agree that dog control orders should not apply to working dogs, and I can give an assurance that that will be dealt with in regulations.
There are definitional problems; is a dog a working dog when it is working and not a working dog when it is not? Somebody might go walking in a different part of the countryside with a dog that is a working dog most of the time, but is it a working dog when it is visiting another area? Such issues are not easy to define, but we know what we mean in general terms. There should not be interference with the use of working dogs on farms. In the spirit of our search for agreement, I give an undertaking that this will be dealt with in regulations.
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Matthew Green: I thank the Minister for that. Farmers who use dogs will be reassured that they will not be caught up in a rather ridiculous scenario.
Alun Michael: I am happy to give that undertaking.
I can give assurances that a couple of other points have also been taken into account. Reference was made to the Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000, and concern was expressed about the lack of exclusions of land from a new regime. Clause 57(3) allows land to be exempted by order. There is also a power for exemptions under the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996 to be excluded. The fact that that is being repealed does not introduce the inflexibility that was suggested in our discussion.
Clause 55 gives local authorities and parish councils—which are respectively defined as primary and secondary authorities in clause 58—the power to make orders to control dogs. Those powers bring into play a new regime that will effectively replace the dog byelaw-making regime. That must be to everybody's benefit, as it removes bureaucracy for both local and central Government.
Clause 55(3) provides that dog control orders can be made to require owners to clear up after their dogs when they have fouled; require that dogs are kept on leads; ban dogs from certain areas; and limit the number of dogs that a person can walk at the same time. The detail of how they are applied is a matter for regulation and guidance, and it requires the flexibility that does not exist when measures are provided for in primary legislation.
In keeping with the constructive spirit in which the hon. Members for Ludlow and for Bury St. Edmunds introduced their amendments, I hope that they will accept my assurances, withdraw the amendments and support the helpful approach of this clause.
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