Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Bill

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Standing Committee G

Thursday 27 January 2005

(Morning)

[David Taylor in the Chair]

Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Bill

Clause 68

Termination of police responsibility forstray dogs

9.25 am

Matthew Green (Ludlow) (LD): I beg to move amendment

No. 18, in clause 68, page 56, line 4, leave out subsection (1).

The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:

No. 21, in clause 68, page 56, line 12, at end insert—

'(5) After subsection (1) of that section insert—

''(1A) Where a stray dog taken to a local authority is ill or injured, treatment should be sought by the appropriate local authority at the earliest possible time.''.'.

No. 22, in clause 68, page 56, line 12, at end insert—

'(6) After subsection (6) of that section insert—

''(6A) In this section a ''stray dog'' is one which is unaccompanied by either owner or person responsible for it in a public place or any other place without the permission of the owner of the land or premises where it is found.''.'.

No. 99, in clause 68, page 56, line 12, at end add—

'( ) It shall be the duty of the local authorities to provide a twenty-four hour dog warden service'.

Matthew Green: Before the Minister gets too excited about amendment No. 18, it does not, as it appears, try to prevent the transfer of responsibility to a single body, which we welcome.

The Minister for Rural Affairs and Local Environmental Quality (Alun Michael): I hear what the hon. Gentleman says, but is it not normal to hear the prosecution before the case for the defence?

Matthew Green: Well, the Minister may be right, but he will notice that this amendment is No. 18 and was tabled early in the process to establish that funds would be transferred. Since then, both in the debate and in a letter that he kindly copied us in on, he has said that the transfer of responsibility will not take place until the transfer of funds. In a sense, we have got the reassurance that we were seeking, but it may be opportune if he enlightens the Committee—although he may be somewhat constrained—as to the possible scale of the funding, since there are two widely differing figures.

The Local Government Association believes that the cost will be £13.2 million. That estimate is based on having one 24-hour full-time post, which is probably excessive for many councils, so for once I will not say that the LGA is absolutely right. I am sure that that is
 
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a negotiating position, as I am also sure that the Home Office's estimate of £1.8 million is a negotiating position, since it seems too low. Given that the Minister is from the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs rather than the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister or the Home Office, what will he do to facilitate the meeting of those two widely different minds?

Miss Anne McIntosh (Vale of York) (Con): I am delighted to be back in my place and I apologise for my inexcusable absence on Tuesday. I am delighted that my hon. Friend the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) was able to make such good progress. [Hon. Members: ''So are we.''] I am not used to such extremely good humour in this Committee, which I am delighted to record.

Amendment No. 21 addresses our great concern about the vulnerability of stray dogs, particularly ill or injured animals. It has been drawn to our attention that stray dogs are especially vulnerable to being run over by cars and lorries, because they are not on a lead and therefore not under control. We are probing the Government to find out what arrangements will be made as a result of the consultations, which perhaps the Minister will be good enough to confirm are ongoing; I know that he met one of the dogs bodies—perhaps I should rephrase that—one of the bodies representing dog interests as recently as this week. We suggest that treatment should be sought by the appropriate local authority as early as possible.

Stray dogs do not respect office hours and are unlikely to stray only between the hours of nine and five. The police are open all hours, but what arrangements will be made, not just for injured stray dogs, but for all strays? The police have a long and proud record of looking after stray dogs so they have proper facilities, such as kennels. How quickly will councils put arrangements in place to ensure that they have an adequate number of kennels?

Where a stray is particularly badly hurt, they may be no alternative but for the animal to be put down. Many strays are put down, although fortunately not too many. According to the Library research paper, in 2002-03 only 11 per cent. of the 104,879 strays were put down. Those are the most recent figures and they are almost the lowest of the last 10 years. There is a concern that stray dogs will be destroyed either because they are injured or because they are particularly violent and aggressive.

What facility will there be to police the kennels to ensure that people such as animal rights extremists will not attack those who are doing the excellent work that we ask them to do? The police kennels were unobtrusive and attracted little attention. Obviously one would hope that similar arrangements can be made for local authority dog kennels. The growing extremism of animal rights people is worrying.

Mr. Mark Simmonds (Boston and Skegness) (Con): Is my hon. Friend aware that rural local authorities are concerned about the long distances that will have to be travelled and the large areas that will have to be covered? In my constituency in rural Lincolnshire,
 
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stray dogs are an issue due to the activities of illegal hare coursers. When dogs are no longer fit enough to chase the hares across farmers' land, they are often dumped and left to fend for themselves. The Minister and I have exchanged correspondence on this matter. I hope that the rural local authorities' concerns are being taken into account in the changes proposed in the clause.

Miss McIntosh: My hon. Friend raises a pertinent point. As hare coursing is illegal, rather than be caught, the perpetrators of that crime prefer to dump their dogs. There is the additional problem that local authorities have to drive further in rural areas to find an appropriate kennel. That will obviously be a cost consideration. I am aware of the Minister's concern for animal welfare, and that of the Minister for the Environment and Agri-environment. The Library research paper describes the response to the Government's consultation on this as follows:

''The threat of attacks on kennels from the public and organisations to prevent injured strays being put down was also a real fear for some respondents. For many it is not solely a matter of capacity for stray dogs but ensuring that the welfare of the animals is protected.''

Confirming the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness (Mr. Simmonds) , it continues:

''Respondents from remote towns and parishes thought that the proposed measure may not be practicable due to the distance stray dogs would have to be transported to be housed. For many the nearest suitable facilities would have been at the police station.''

Trying to find alternative facilities and incurring additional transport costs will put up the overall costs quite dramatically. It should be noted, as it was in the responses, that the present system operated by the police works extremely well. That is important.

My next point is probably the most sensitive one for the Minister to answer; it was touched on by the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green). I appreciate that discussions are ongoing and I am sure that the Minister is being patient about hearing all sides of the argument, but if there is to be a transfer of resources, what assurance can he give the Committee and thus the Kennel Club, Dogs Trust and the National Dog Wardens Association that sufficient funds will have been transferred as of the date on which the Bill takes legislative effect?

Mr. Simmonds: My hon. Friend is making a very good series of points. Does she share my concern that the Government have a track record of giving local authorities additional responsibilities without providing sufficient funding to allow them to cope with that, which has a direct impact in that local people pay increased council tax? [Interruption.]

The Chairman: Order. Could the continuous conversations on the Government Benches please be curtailed?

Alun Michael rose—

Miss McIntosh: I give way to the Minister.
 
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Alun Michael: Will the hon. Lady kindly slap down the intervention from her Back-Bench colleague, who ignores the massive cuts that are promised in local authority funds and services under Conservative proposals, and will she note that it is—

The Chairman: Order. We are discussing clause 68 of the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Bill.

Miss McIntosh: I hear what the Minister said, but the prospect of slapping down such a kindly and courteous gentleman as my hon. Friend the Member for Boston and Skegness fills me with horror. On the Minister's other point, in approximately 10 weeks' time we shall have ample opportunity to discuss—

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Prepared 27 January 2005