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Lembit Öpik: Does the Minister not recognise that there is all the difference in the world in being able to show who one is and what one intends to do? Given that transponder technology now means that it would be possible electronically to tag everyone and really know what they were up to, if the Government felt that that was feasible and affordable would they recommend it—or do they accept that there is a line beyond which one should not pass, in which case we are simply drawing it in a different place?
Mr. Touhig: I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is seriously putting that forward as a proposal. If so, that is an even more batty Liberal Democrat policy than we have heard before. This is a serious debate. I recognise that people have concerns about the use of identity cards but I think that most people in this country believe that if one has nothing to hide, one has no problem with and no fear of carrying an identity card. We have been carrying them in this place for some years and I do not think that anyone here has objected to their use. It has certainly been an easy way to pave our access into the Palace of Westminster. For the life of me I cannot see how that argument is carried forward.
Adam Price: We all remember the miners strike, do we not, when police forces were trying to prevent pickets from moving across the country. Can the Minister not envisage some possible future scenario when there would be an abuse, because the police would want to track the movement of trade union activists or other political activists? Once they had the name they would check with the database and be able to use their resources, the resources of the state, to prevent legitimate expression of political activity.
Mr. Touhig: We have civil rights legislation that protects us from that kind of abuse. I can only say to the hon. Gentleman that he makes a fair point, because we have had bad experiences in the past when another party was in power, but we must look at the experiences of countries in mainland Europe. They do not have the kind of problems that the hon. Gentleman has suggested. It is important to have a full and thorough debate on the matter. In the end the Government will, I believe, convince people that the step is the right one.
My hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon spoke about the older people's commissioner and welcomed the proposals. He also spoke about his work on the Carers (Equal Opportunities) Act 2004, which he put through the House of Commons and for which we are grateful. He called for a carers' revolution and he is right. Everyone in the Chamber now recognises from visits to their surgery week after week that there are people who spend their life caring for others and that often they are vulnerable and in need of support, backing and encouragement. The proposals that we will eventually bring forward for the older people's commissioner will provide a champion for older people's rights and that will, I think, be greatly welcomed.
The hon. Member for Leominster gave his usual set piece speech, but I was more intrigued by the intervention on my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State this morning. If I understood it correctly, the
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£35 billion of cuts proposed by the shadow Chancellor will not apply in Wales. Indeed, when he came back into the Room at two o'clock he confirmed that there would be no cuts to the Welsh block.
Mr. Wiggin: That is right.
Mr. Touhig: That is right. It is therefore the Opposition's proposal to cut public expenditure by £35 billion, which would be paid for by the people of England, Ireland and Scotland, but Wales will make no contribution whatever to it. Indeed, the hon. Gentleman assured us that the people of Wales will have increased spending. I think, Mr. Griffiths, that Christmas has come early; Santa Wiggin has certainly delivered his message to everybody in Wales. I really cannot believe that that is the Opposition's policy. It certainly does not stack up with proposals that the shadow Chancellor has talked about. Indeed, the much-discussed James review of public expenditure by the Conservative party identifies savings in education of £5.6 billion and in health of £7.2 billion. There are consequences of that in Wales.
Is the hon. Gentleman saying that the fact that Wales has benefited from that kind of expenditure means that it will not be clawed back? It would be Utopia if the Conservatives were to deliver on that. I think that, before too long, the hon. Gentleman will receive a telephone call from the shadow Chancellor with an invitation to have a cup of tea in the Pugin Room, and have the facts of life, so far as these measures are concerned, explained to him.
Mr. Roger Williams: Perhaps the Minister will confirm my understanding that the hon. Member for Leominster said that the Conservatives would match the Government's expenditure on health and education as well?
Mr. Touhig: Yes. He said that they are committed to matching the Government's commitments on health and education. All that will come as something of a surprise to the Conservatives, not just to the shadow Chancellor but to the Conservative leader in the Assembly, who told the The Western Mail how £1 billion of cuts would be implemented in Wales. Clearly, there is a problem of communication between Cardiff and London so far as that is concerned.
The hon. Member for Leominster also went on to assure us that the Conservative party is committed to cutting taxes. Again, the shadow Chancellor will be a bit surprised because, in an interview with The Daily Telegraph on 9 December 2003, he said:
''We won't go to the polls at the next election saying that we'll reduce the tax bill. If we do that, Gordon Brown will just accuse of slashing and burning public services.''
So, the shadow Chancellor does not know that the hon. Gentleman has committed the Conservatives to tax cuts at the next election. He wound up by comparing Wales before 1997 and Wales now. I do not think that there is a better comparison of Wales in 1997 and Wales now than in the remarks of the right hon. Member for Wokingham. Speaking about the Tory years, he said:
''15 per cent interest rates, sky high mortgage arrears, negative equity, bankruptcies, entrepreneurs giving up the ghost on private-run companies and a lot of people losing their jobs.''
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He went on to say:
''I don't think there was a family in the country that didn't experience at least one of those anguishes. My parents lost their jobs in that recession. A lot of people lost their houses.''
That was the Tory record in Government, and whatever the hon. Gentleman says, that will not be forgotten by the people of Wales when we come to the next election. That is not the case in the prosperous, vigorous Wales of today.
My hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn welcomed the Queen's Speech and the pre-Budget report. In particular, he mentioned the Consumer Credit Bill. I know that he has done a great deal of work on Ynys Môn promoting the information in that Bill among his constituents. He talked about business confidence on Ynys Môn, and I certainly believe that is the case, as when I was last in that constituency I found that that was moving forward and he confirmed that today. He talked about building on the transport and broadband infrastructure and of the investment that his island is receiving, and how important those will be to its future. He also spoke about the importance of the Wales (Transport) Bill, and touched on the Railways Bill, asking whether there will be a Welsh representative on the Railways Bill. I can confirm that the National Assembly will have the opportunity to nominate representatives of the passenger consultative committee on that. He also talked about the improved transport links, particularly the air links, that we hope will follow legislation that is to come before Parliament. If an air link between north and south Wales succeeds, it will be due in no small measure to him. If he achieves nothing else in the few years that he has served in the House of Commons, the development of that air link and the tremendous way in which he has promoted the case for it on behalf of his constituents will be to his eternal credit.
Mr. Roger Williams: I thank the Minister for speaking at length after that intervention. I rise, as a passenger rather than an academic, to make a point about the issue of the representative on the rail users council. The point was well made, and perhaps the Minister will comment on it.
Mr. Touhig: Yes, that point was well made. As I said, it will be for my colleagues in the Assembly to nominate the representative, but I have no doubt that they will take that point into account, and I am sure that my hon. Friend the Member for Ynys Môn will ensure that Assembly Members are also aware of it.
That brings me to the point made by the hon. Member for Brecon and Radnorshire, who spent a little time at the beginning of his remarks talking about devolution and where it was going, and teasing the Government to say what our proposals are. He knows full well what they are. We plan to publish a White Paper after a general election, in which we will set out the options for the people of Wales. That is our policy. It was agreed by the party conference and that is what we will say to the people of Wales at a general election. If the people endorse us and return this Government to power, my right hon. Friend the
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Secretary of State will publish a White Paper setting out the options for the future and how devolution in Wales will progress.
My hon. Friend the Member for Conwy spoke particularly about road safety and people using mobile phones while driving, which is illegal. She gave us an example and spoke about deaths on the roads, excessive speed and those who demonise speed cameras. I agree entirely. All the evidence suggests that speed cameras do save lives. The sort of campaigns that we have seen in the media against them are wholly wrong. There is no doubt in my mind that they are an important tool in making our roads safer.
My hon. Friend also spoke about the need to improve the rail service to north Wales. I have used that service, and I hope and pray that she is successful, because it does need considerable improvement. With her as a champion, I have no doubt that there will be considerable improvements in that service.
My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth spoke about the economic stability that this Government have brought for Wales and for his constituents in particular. He spoke about many of the problems faced by farmers in his constituency. Again, in his time in this House, there has been no firmer friend and champion of the rural community than him. He has worked tirelessly to ensure that their voices are heard in this place, and he has been in constant touch to understand their needs and problems. I have no doubt whatever that they appreciate all his hard work and that that appreciation will be reflected whenever the general election is held. He will be with us on the Government Benches in Labour's third term of government.
My hon. Friend also spoke importantly about the three-for-two issue of children travelling on school buses. He made an important contribution during consideration of the School Transport Bill. I heard what he said, and I have no doubt that Ministers also heard it, so let us hope that there will be some progress on school transport.
The hon. Member for East Carmarthen and Dinefwr (Adam Price) discussed quite a range of economic issues relevant to Wales. He praised the Chancellor for his management of the economy, and he is not alone: the Chancellor has a great many admirers across the board as a result of the success with which he has managed the British economy for the past seven years. The hon. Gentleman does, however, detect a degree of insecurity about the future. I do not detect that in my constituency, but I accept the two points that he makes about pensions. There is undoubtedly a worry about pensions and about people's futures. He touched on Abingdon Carpets in my constituency, where more than 400 people who were part of the Abingdon pension scheme now find that only about a third of their pension will be paid to them as a result of a failure of the previous management to keep payments going into the scheme and to prevent the company from going out of business and the pension fund falling into considerable deficit.
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It is important that legislation introduced by this Government results in opportunities to give help and support to people such as my constituents. I have written to the trustees of the Abingdon financial assistance scheme, urging them to submit an application to the Department for Work and Pensions by 10 December for the Abingdon pensions to be considered for support under the financial assistance scheme. The details of the scheme are yet to be agreed, but I hope that the proposal will give comfort and support to my hard-working constituents and to those across Wales who have put in a lifetime of work, only to find their pensions considerably reduced.
The hon. Gentleman talked about economic inactivity, although there is a disagreement over the trend. The Government's view is that the figure has fallen by about 2 per cent. since 1997. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy said that economic inactivity in Neath was 31.4 per cent. Our information suggests that the figure is 29.2 per cent., but as my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State said in an intervention, things have been peculiar in the past year. The rate appeared to move downwards and then there was a blip.
It is clearly in all our interests to do everything that we can to tackle the problem of economic inactivity. The pathways to work scheme, as rolled out in Bridgend and Rhondda Cynon Taf, has seen 1,000
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people moving from incapacity benefit into work. That is to be encouraged and welcomed.
All politics is about choice. The Queen's Speech and the pre-Budget report offer the people of Wales a clear choice for the future. This debate shows the gaping chasm between the can't dos and won't dos on the Opposition Benches and the Labour Government of can dos and will dos, who are on the side of the people. This debate has exposed the fundamental choice between the Opposition parties, talking Wales down at every opportunity and pledged to social division and economic collapse, and the Government, delivering opportunity, choice and equality for the people of Wales. We believe that the Government can and should be a force for good. That is why we offer the people of Wales an agenda based on opportunity, social justice and security for all. That is why I believe that the people of Wales will continue to put their trust in the Labour party and in the Government, and will certainly do so whenever a general election comes.
Question put and agreed to.
Resolved,
That the Committee has considered the Government's legislative programme as outlined in the Queen's Speech as it relates to Wales and public expenditure in Wales.
Committee rose accordingly at seventeen minutes past Four o'clock.
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