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83

 
 

House of Commons

 
 

Wednesday 2nd November 2005

 

Committee of the Whole House

 

Proceedings

 

Terrorism Bill

 

[first DAY]

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not selected  19

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  6,  leave out ‘on his behalf’.

 

Mr Douglas Hogg

 

Not selected  70

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  8,  leave out from beginning to ‘to’ in line 13 and insert ‘he

 

intends to incite members of the public’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Negatived on division  79

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  8,  leave out paragraph (b) and insert—

 

‘(b)    

at the time he does so, he intends or is recklessly indifferent to the fact

 

that the publication will be understood as a direct or indirect

 

encouragement or inducement to the commission, preparation or

 

instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences.

 

(c)    

it is not necessary that the prosecution prove that he intended to cause,

 

encourage or induce the commission, preparation or instigation of a

 

specific terrorist act’.

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not called  18

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  9,  leave out from beginning to ‘a’ in line 12 and insert—

 

‘(i)    

he intends it to be, and

 

(ii)    

it is likely to be’.

 
 

Committee of the whole House Proceedings: 2nd November 2005  

84

 

Terrorism Bill, continued

 
 

Mr Elfyn Llwyd

 

Angus Robertson

 

Mr Alex Salmond

 

Hywel Williams

 

Adam Price

 

Stewart Hosie

 

Not called  62

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  9,  leave out from beginning to end of line 10 and insert ‘he

 

intends’.

 

Dr Evan Harris

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not called  97

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  9,  leave out from beginning to end of line 14 and insert—

 

    

‘he intends to incite or induce any other person to commit or prepare to commit

 

an act of terrorism or a Convention offence; and

 

(c)    

he thereby causes a danger that one or more such offences may be

 

committed.’.

 

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Mr Elfyn Llwyd

 

Not called  1

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  9,  leave out from ‘believes’ to end of line 10.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Mr Elfyn Llwyd

 

Not called  2

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  10,  leave out ‘has reasonable grounds for believing’ and

 

insert ‘is reckless to the consequence’.

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not selected  36

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  11,  leave out ‘members of the public’ and insert ‘persons’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Mr Elfyn Llwyd

 

Not called  3

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  12,  leave out ‘are likely to’ and insert ‘would’.

 
 

Committee of the whole House Proceedings: 2nd November 2005  

85

 

Terrorism Bill, continued

 
 

Mr Elfyn Llwyd

 

Angus Robertson

 

Mr Alex Salmond

 

Hywel Williams

 

Adam Price

 

Stewart Hosie

 

Not called  63

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  12,  leave out ‘are likely to’ and insert ‘will’.

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not called  37

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  12,  leave out ‘a direct or indirect’ and insert ‘an’.

 

Mr Robert Marshall-Andrews

 

Alan Simpson

 

Jeremy Corbyn

 

Richard Burden

 

Ms Diane Abbott

 

Mrs Linda Riordan

 

Lynne Jones

 

Not called  21

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  13,  leave out ‘encouragement or other inducement’ and

 

insert ‘incitement’.

 

Mr Douglas Hogg

 

Not selected  80

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  14,  after ‘offences’, insert ‘and when such acts are to be

 

committed outside the United Kingdom they are done with the intention of causing the

 

death or injury of persons not being members of the armed or security forces of the

 

country in which the acts are to be committed or otherwise engaged in the administration

 

of that country or damage to the property or economic interests of the citizens of the

 

United Kingdom or of the government of the United Kingdom or of corporations

 

registered in the United Kingdom or of business having an office in the United Kingdom’.

 

Mr Robert Marshall-Andrews

 

Alan Simpson

 

Jeremy Corbyn

 

Richard Burden

 

Ms Diane Abbott

 

Mrs Linda Riordan

 

Lynne Jones

 

Negatived on division  22

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  14,  at end insert ‘and intends that his statement shall have

 

that effect’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Not selected  77

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  14,  at end insert—

 
 

Committee of the whole House Proceedings: 2nd November 2005  

86

 

Terrorism Bill, continued

 
 

‘(1A)    

In the case of a statement directed to the commission, preparation or instigation

 

of any such act outside the United Kingdom, no offence under this section shall

 

be committed, if the statement relates solely to the use of force to resist or

 

confront the armed or security forces of the country concerned in order to bring

 

about a change in government or government policy in a country where free and

 

fair elections by secret ballot are not held at reasonable intervals under conditions

 

which ensure the free expression of the opinions of the people of that country in

 

the choice of their government.’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Robert Marshall-Andrews

 

Alan Simpson

 

Jeremy Corbyn

 

Negatived on division  4

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  15,  leave out subsection (2).

 

Mr Douglas Hogg

 

Not selected  71

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  15,  leave out subsections (2) to (4).

 

Dr Evan Harris

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not selected  98

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  15,  leave out subsection (2) and insert—

 

‘(2)    

It is irrelevant for the purpose of subsection (1)—

 

(a)    

whether the statement refers to the commission or preparation of one or

 

more particular acts of terrorism or Convention offences of a particular

 

description or of acts of terrorism or Convention offences generally; and

 

(b)    

whether any person is in fact incited or induced by the statement to

 

commit or prepare to commit any such act or offence.’.

 

Dr Evan Harris

 

Not called  99

 

Clause  1,  page  1,  line  16,  leave out ‘encouraging’ and insert ‘inciting’.

 

Dr Evan Harris

 

Not called  95

 

Clause  1,  page  2,  line  5,  at end insert ‘and

 

(c)    

thereby causes a danger that one or more acts of terrorism or Convention

 

offences may be committed.’.

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not called  85

 

Clause  1,  page  2,  line  6,  leave out subsection (3).

 
 

Committee of the whole House Proceedings: 2nd November 2005  

87

 

Terrorism Bill, continued

 
 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Not called  6

 

Clause  1,  page  2,  line  6,  leave out from second ‘the’ to ‘must’ in line 8 and insert

 

‘question of what constitutes recklessness as regards the consequential effect of a

 

statement on members of the public’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Not selected  5

 

Clause  1,  page  2,  line  6,  after ‘questions’, insert ‘of’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Not called  7

 

Clause  1,  page  2,  line  12,  leave out ‘subsections (1) and (2)’ and insert ‘subsection

 

(1)’.

 

Clause Agreed to.

 

 

Mr Douglas Hogg

 

Not selected  72

 

Clause  2,  page  2,  line  44,  after ‘if’, insert ‘intending to incite the commission,

 

preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences within the United

 

Kingdom and elsewhere but provided that where the acts were to be committed outside

 

the United Kingdom the acts of terrorism or Convention offences are done with the

 

intention of causing the death or injury of persons not being members of the armed or

 

security forces of the country where those offences are to be committed or otherwise

 

employed in the administration of that country or damage to the property or economic

 

interests of the citizens of the United Kingdom or of the government of the United

 

Kingdom or of corporations registered in the United Kingdom or of businesses having an

 

office in the United Kingdom.’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Not called  54

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  5,  leave out ‘a view’ and insert ‘intent’.

 
 

Committee of the whole House Proceedings: 2nd November 2005  

88

 

Terrorism Bill, continued

 
 

Mr Robert Marshall-Andrews

 

Alan Simpson

 

Jeremy Corbyn

 

Richard Burden

 

Ms Diane Abbott

 

Mrs Linda Riordan

 

Lynne Jones

 

Not called  23

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  6,  at end insert ‘and intends at the time that his conduct shall

 

incite acts of terrorism by some or all of the persons to whom matter contained in

 

paragraphs (a) to (f) of subsection (1) is or is likely to be available in consequence of that

 

conduct.’.

 

Mr Douglas Hogg

 

Not selected  73

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  7,  leave out subsections (2) to (7).

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not selected  43

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  11,  after first ‘of’, insert ‘an act or’.

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not called  44

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  12,  after ‘information’, insert ‘intended to be’.

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not called  20

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  12,  at end insert—

 

‘where the conduct was intended to be a direct or indirect encouragement or inducement

 

to the commission, preparation or instigation of an act or acts of terrorism or if in all the

 

circumstances it should have been apparent to the accused that it was likely to be so.’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Not selected  76

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  13,  at end insert—

 

‘(2A)    

In the case of any publication directed to the commission, preparation or

 

instigation of any such act outside the United Kingdom, no offence under this

 

section shall be committed, if the statement relates solely to the use of force to

 

resist or confront the armed or security forces of the country concerned in order

 

to bring about a change in government or government policy in a country where

 

free and fair elections by secret ballot are not held at reasonable intervals under

 
 

Committee of the whole House Proceedings: 2nd November 2005  

89

 

Terrorism Bill, continued

 
 

conditions which ensure the free expression of the opinions of the people of that

 

country in the choice of their government.’.

 

Mr Robert Marshall-Andrews

 

Alan Simpson

 

Jeremy Corbyn

 

Richard Burden

 

Ms Diane Abbott

 

Mrs Linda Riordan

 

Lynne Jones

 

Not called  24

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  14,  leave out ‘direct or indirect encouragement or other

 

inducement’ and insert ‘incitement’.

 

David Davis

 

Mr Dominic Grieve

 

Patrick Mercer

 

Mr Edward Garnier

 

Not called  78

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  16,  leave out ‘likely to be understood as such’ and insert

 

‘intended to be’.

 

Mr Robert Marshall-Andrews

 

Alan Simpson

 

Jeremy Corbyn

 

Richard Burden

 

Ms Diane Abbott

 

Mrs Linda Riordan

 

Lynne Jones

 

Not called  25

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  16,  leave out ‘encouragement or other inducement’ and

 

insert ‘incitement’.

 

Mr Robert Marshall-Andrews

 

Alan Simpson

 

Jeremy Corbyn

 

Richard Burden

 

Ms Diane Abbott

 

Mrs Linda Riordan

 

Lynne Jones

 

Not called  26

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  19,  leave out subsection (4).

 

Dr Evan Harris

 

Mr Mark Oaten

 

Mr Alistair Carmichael

 

Mr David Heath

 

Lynne Featherstone

 

Not called  96

 

Clause  2,  page  3,  line  26,  at end insert—

 

‘(c)    

thereby causes a danger that one or more acts of terrorism or Convention

 

offences may be committed.’.

 
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