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Judy Mallaber (Amber Valley) (Lab): The National Tramway museum in my constituency, on whose behalf I have lobbied on this issue, is pleased with the way in which this matter has been dealt with. While I am happy with what my hon. Friend has just said, can he assure the Committee that we will not suddenly find regulations being put down that narrow the definition and that the provision will not suddenly be interpreted in a more restrictive way by those administering it?

Mr. Lewis: I understand entirely my hon. Friend's concern, and any regulation or guidance must be
13 Jun 2005 : Column 49
consistent with what I have put on record in this debate during the past few minutes. I hope that that reassures her about how the provision will be applied.

Stephen Hammond : Is the Minister saying that the charity can define "family" to include anyone within a group, but not necessarily a member of the charity? That is, in fact, the thrust of the amendment.

Mr. Lewis: I did not entirely follow the question. May I ask the hon. Gentleman to intervene again?

Stephen Hammond: Is the Minister suggesting that a charity can choose to define "family" as a group accompanying the original member? If so, it seems to me that he is accepting the amendment.

Mr. Lewis: No, I am not accepting the amendment. What I said was that the definition of the term "family" in the legislation and the current guidance, which will not be changed, is basically a matter for the individual charity. We believe that maintaining the status quo is in the best interests of what we are trying to achieve, and that accepting the amendment would lead to a more confusing and ambiguous situation for charitable organisations. Having made those points, I call on the hon. Member for Rayleigh to withdraw amendment No. 36.

Mr. Francois: I think that I can genuinely say that this has been an informative debate and I thank all who have contributed. I noticed that we kept the Officials' Box rather busy, and I think we can all take that as a backhanded compliment.

The Minister admitted in his introductory remarks that he had been a lifelong Manchester City supporter, so his courage is not in doubt, but he also said that he was making his maiden speech in a Finance Bill Committee. Actually, so was I, but I did not ask for quite the same mercy in the form of a lack of interventions. I think the Minister will forgive me if I put that on the record as well.

This issue was dealt with for 18 months by the hon. Member for Wentworth (John Healey), who is now Financial Secretary to the Treasury. I was slightly disappointed that he did not respond to the debate. I take it that the baton was effectively handed to the Economic Secretary in a shuffle of responsibilities. Having heard the debate, I am sure that the Economic Secretary is delighted to have been given this bonne bouche by his more senior colleague.

I listened carefully to the hon. Member for Richmond Park (Susan Kramer). I am grateful for her declaration of support for our amendment No. 35, which I am minded to press. Let me deal first, however, with amendment No. 1. My hon. Friend the Member for Wimbledon (Stephen Hammond) tabled an interesting amendment seeking to widen the qualifying definition in clause 11(5I), and made an interesting case for it. As this year is the 200th anniversary of the battle of Trafalgar, I was intrigued to hear of Lord Nelson's domestic arrangements, which my hon. Friend described at one point as a ménage à trois. Who is to say that debate on the Finance Bill must always be dry? Having heard what the Minister said, I suspect that my hon. Friend will not
13 Jun 2005 : Column 50
be minded to press his amendment at this stage. Nevertheless, he has succeeded in raising the issue in Committee and I congratulate him on that.

I also congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne), who gave a number of practical examples of how the clause could directly affect his constituency. He also managed to get more interest on the record than I did in my opening remarks, and I congratulate him on that as well. My hon. Friend asked a specific question about how the Mappa Mundi would be affected. I was pleased to hear that the Minister had offered to write to him directly. I hope that my hon. Friend will receive clarification that will be of value to his constituents.

With amendment No. 36, we were partly trying to tease out the Government's thinking, but we also had a serious point to make. Let me say to the hon. Members for Wolverhampton, South-West (Rob Marris) and for Rhondda (Chris Bryant), both of whom spoke, that we drafted the amendment deliberately. We did not say that it would apply only to educative interactive facilities for children, because children do not have a monopoly on being educated. Adults can often be educated too, as the House of Commons proves regularly.

Of course, as a rule of thumb, people under the age of 18 tend not to be taxpayers, so the issue is whether the institution itself can qualify. I am pleased that in his speech the Minister effectively accepted amendment No. 36 by confirming that the guidelines that the Government will issue to clarify this matter will include that category of charity. I thank him for that, but I reiterate the plea on behalf of the whole sector that we have those guidelines as soon as possible. Quite properly, and for all the reasons that we have elucidated this afternoon, many museums and charities throughout the country will want to investigate whether they can qualify. The sooner, therefore, that the Treasury and Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs produce those guidelines in hard copy, so that everybody can read them and take a view, the better.

I also paid particular attention to what the Minister said about amendment No. 35. I appreciate that his very reasonable predecessor has discussed this issue—which, as I said, dates back to December 2003—with the industry for some time. Originally, the Government were going to abolish qualifying institutions' ability to claim gift aid on admission charges. There was such a row that they retreated and came up with a modified position, on which they have also consulted. However, as we have attempted seriously to argue this afternoon, a number of institutions are still genuinely very concerned about how the clause will operate, particularly the provisions concerning the 10 per cent. additional charge and the one-year right of admission. We have tried to reduce that period to three months, so that the Government can protect revenue without charitable sectors—museums—being inappropriately affected to the point where their revenue schemes are under serious threat.

We have made the case and I am sorry to hear that the Minister was not minded to accept it. I suspect that, as a result, this issue will rumble on. The Government have offered to review the situation in 2007, as the regulatory impact assessment points out, so we may yet need to consider how the provision works in practice. I make a final plea to the Minister that between now and
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consideration on Report in July, he goes back to those who are affected by this provision and considers the issue one last time. However, given that he has offered no concessions this afternoon, we have no option but to test the opinion of the Committee. I therefore wish to press amendment No. 35 to a vote.

The Temporary Chairman (Sir Nicholas Winterton): May I ask the hon. Gentleman what Her Majesty's Opposition intend to do about amendment No. 36? Do they wish to withdraw it?

Mr. Francois: Forgive me, Sir Nicholas—I thank you for that guidance. Because the Government have effectively accepted amendment No. 36 in the revised guidelines, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment proposed: No. 35, in page 12, line 1, leave    out 'one year' and insert 'three months'— [Mr. Francois.]

The Committee divided: Ayes 203, Noes 290.

Division No. 9
[5.28 pm


Adam Afriyie
Mr. Peter Ainsworth
Mr. Ancram
Mr. Atkinson
Mr. Bacon
Gregory Barker
Mr. Baron
John Barrett
Mr. Beith
Mr. Bellingham
Mr. Benyon
John Bercow
Sir Paul Beresford
Mr. Blunt
Mr. Boswell
Peter Bottomley
Mr. Brady
Mr. Brazier
Mr. Breed
James Brokenshire
Mr. Jeremy Browne
Angela Browning
Mr. Burrowes
Mr. Burstow
Alistair Burt
Lorely Burt
Sir John Butterfill
Dr. Cable
Mr. Cameron
Sir Menzies Campbell
Mr. Cash
Mr. Clappison
Greg Clark
Mr. Clifton-Brown
Derek Conway
Mr. Cox
Mr. Crabb
Mr. Curry
Mr. Davey
David T.C. Davies (Monmouth)
Philip Davies
David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden)
Mr. Djanogly
Mr. Dodds
Mrs. Dorries
James Duddridge
Mr. Duncan
Mr. Duncan Smith
Mr. Dunne
Mr. Ellwood
Mr. Evennett
Mr. Fallon
Lynne Featherstone
Mr. Mark Field
Mr. Forth
Mr. Don Foster
Dr. Fox
Mr. Francois
Mr. Fraser
Mr. Gale
Mr. Garnier
Mr. Gauke
Mr. Gibb
Mrs. Gillan
Julia Goldsworthy
Mr. Paul Goodman
Mr. Goodwill
Michael Gove
Chris Grayling
Damian Green
Justine Greening
Mr. Grieve
Mr. Gummer
Mr. Hague
Mr. Philip Hammond
Stephen Hammond
Mr. Hands
Mr. Harper
Nick Harvey
Mr. Hayes
Mr. Heald
Mr. Heath
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
John Hemming
Charles Hendry
Mr. Herbert
Mr. Hoban
Mr. Hogg
Mr. Hollobone
Mr. Holloway
Paul Holmes
Mr. Horam
Mr. Horwood
Stewart Hosie
Mr. Howard
David Howarth
Chris Huhne
Mr. Hunt
Mr. Hurd
Mr. Jack
Mr. Stewart Jackson
Mr. Jenkin
Mr. Boris Johnson
Mr. David Jones
Daniel Kawczynski
Robert Key
Miss Kirkbride
Mr. Greg Knight
Susan Kramer
Mrs. Laing
Mrs. Lait
Norman Lamb
Mr. Lancaster
Mr. Laws
Mr. Leech
Mr. Leigh
Mr. Letwin
Dr. Julian Lewis
Mr. Liddell-Grainger
Mr. Lidington
Mr. Lilley
Mr. Llwyd
Tim Loughton
Peter Luff
Mr. Mackay
David Maclean
Mr. MacNeil
Anne Main
Mr. Maples
Mrs. May
Miss McIntosh
Mr. McLoughlin
Patrick Mercer
Mrs. Maria Miller
Anne Milton
Mr. Andrew Mitchell
Mr. Moss
David Mundell
Dr. Murrison
Mr. Newmark
Mr. Stephen O'Brien
Mr. Oaten
Mr. George Osborne
Richard Ottaway
Mr. Paice
Rev. Ian Paisley
Mr. Paterson
Mr. Pelling
Mike Penning
John Penrose
Mr. Pickles
Adam Price
Mark Pritchard
Mr. Redwood
Mr. Robathan
Hugh Robertson
Mr. Rogerson
Bob Russell
Mr. Sanders
Andrew Selous
Grant Shapps
Mr. Shepherd
Sir Robert Smith
Sir Michael Spicer
Bob Spink
Mr. Spring
Sir John Stanley
Mr. Steen
Mr. Streeter
Andrew Stunell
Mr. Swayne
Jo Swinson
Mr. Swire
Mr. Syms
Sir Peter Tapsell
Mr. Ian Taylor
Matthew Taylor
Dr. Richard Taylor
Sarah Teather
David Tredinnick
Mr. Andrew Turner
Mr. Tyrie
Mr. Vaizey
Mr. Vara
Peter Viggers
Mrs. Villiers
Mr. Wallace
Mr. Waterson
Angela Watkinson
Steve Webb
Mr. Weir
Mr. Whittingdale
Bill Wiggin
Mr. Willetts
Hywel Williams
Mr. Roger Williams
Stephen Williams
Jenny Willott
Mr. Rob Wilson
Ann Winterton
Pete Wishart
Mr. Yeo
Sir George Young

Tellers for the Ayes:

Michael Fabricant and
Mr. David Ruffley


Ms Abbott
Nick Ainger
Mr. Bob Ainsworth
Mr. Allen
Mr. David Anderson
Janet Anderson
Hilary Armstrong
Charlotte Atkins
Mr. Ian Austin
Mr. Bailey
Vera Baird
Ed Balls
Gordon Banks
Ms Barlow
Mr. Barron
Miss Begg
Sir Stuart Bell
Mr. Benton
Roger Berry
Mr. Betts
Liz Blackman
Dr. Blackman-Woods
Hazel Blears
Mr. Blizzard
Mr. Blunkett
Mr. Borrow
Kevin Brennan
Lyn Brown
Mr. Nicholas Brown
Mr. Russell Brown
Mr. Des Browne
Chris Bryant
Ms Buck
Richard Burden
Colin Burgon
Andy Burnham
Ms Butler
Mr. Byrne
David Cairns
Mr. Alan Campbell
Mr. Ronnie Campbell
Mr. Caton
Mr. Cawsey
Colin Challen
Ben Chapman
Mr. Clapham
Ms Katy Clark
Paul Clark
Mr. Charles Clarke
Mr. Tom Clarke
Ann Clwyd
Mr. Coaker
Ann Coffey
Harry Cohen
Rosie Cooper
Yvette Cooper
Jeremy Corbyn
Jim Cousins
Mr. Crausby
Mary Creagh
Jon Cruddas
John Cummings
Mr. Jim Cunningham
Mrs. Curtis-Thomas
Mr. David
Mr. Davidson
Mrs. Dean
Mr. Dhanda
Mr. Dismore
Jim Dobbin
Frank Dobson
Mr. Doran
Jim Dowd
Mr. Drew
Mrs. Dunwoody
Angela Eagle
Maria Eagle
Clive Efford
Mrs. Ellman
Jeff Ennis
Paul Farrelly
Mr. Frank Field
Jim Fitzpatrick
Mr. Flello
Caroline Flint
Barbara Follett
Mr. Michael Foster (Worcester)
Michael Jabez Foster (Hastings and Rye)
Dr. Francis
Mike Gapes
Mr. Bruce George
Mr. Gerrard
Dr. Gibson
Linda Gilroy
Mr. Godsiff
Paul Goggins
Helen Goodman
Nia Griffith
Nigel Griffiths
Mr. Grogan
Andrew Gwynne
Mr. Mike Hall
Patrick Hall
Mr. David Hamilton
Ms Harman
Mr. Tom Harris
Mr. Havard
John Healey
Mr. Henderson
Mr. Hendrick
Mr. Hepburn
Stephen Hesford
Ms Hewitt
David Heyes
Keith Hill
Meg Hillier
Margaret Hodge
Mrs. Hodgson
Mr. Hoon
Phil Hope
Kelvin Hopkins
Mr. George Howarth
Mr. Hoyle
Beverley Hughes
Mrs. Humble
Mr. Hutton
Dr. Iddon
Mr. Illsley
Mr. Ingram
Huw Irranca-Davies
Glenda Jackson
Mrs. James
Mr. Jenkins
Alan Johnson
Ms Diana R. Johnson
Helen Jones
Mr. Kevan Jones
Lynne Jones
Mr. Martyn Jones
Tessa Jowell
Mr. Joyce
Sir Gerald Kaufman
Ms Keeble
Ms Keeley
Alan Keen
Ann Keen
Ruth Kelly
Mr. Kemp
Jane Kennedy
Mr. Khabra
Mr. Khan
Mr. Kidney
Mr. Kilfoyle
Jim Knight
Dr. Kumar
Dr. Ladyman
Mr. Lammy
Mark Lazarowicz
David Lepper
Tom Levitt
Mr. Ivan Lewis
Martin Linton
Mr. Love
Ian Lucas
Mr. MacDougall
Andrew Mackinlay
Mr. MacShane
Fiona Mactaggart
Mr. Mahmood
Mr. Malik
Judy Mallaber
John Mann
Rob Marris
Mr. Marshall-Andrews
Mr. Martlew
Mr. McAvoy
Steve McCabe
Kerry McCarthy
Sarah McCarthy-Fry
Mr. McCartney
Siobhain McDonagh
John McDonnell
Mr. McFadden
Mr. McGovern
Mrs. McGuire
Shona McIsaac
Ann McKechin
Rosemary McKenna
Mr. McNulty
Mr. Meacher
Gillian Merron
Mr. David Miliband
Edward Miliband
Andrew Miller
Laura Moffatt
Chris Mole
Mrs. Moon
Jessica Morden
Julie Morgan
Kali Mountford
Mr. Mudie
Mr. Mullin
Meg Munn
Mr. Denis Murphy
Mr. Jim Murphy
Mr. Paul Murphy
Dr. Naysmith
Dan Norris
Mr. Mike O'Brien
Mr. Olner
Sandra Osborne
Albert Owen
Dr. Palmer
Ian Pearson
Mr. Plaskitt
Mr. Pope
Stephen Pound
Mr. Prescott
Gwyn Prosser
Mr. Purchase
James Purnell
Bill Rammell
Mr. Raynsford
Mr. Andy Reed
Mr. Jamie Reed
John Reid
Mrs. Riordan
John Robertson
Mr. Geoffrey Robinson
Mr. Rooney
Mr. Roy
Joan Ruddock
Christine Russell
Joan Ryan
Martin Salter
Mr. Sarwar
Alison Seabeck
Jonathan Shaw
Mr. Sheerman
Jim Sheridan
Clare Short
Mr. Simon
Alan Simpson
Mr. Singh
Mr. Skinner
Mr. Slaughter
Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Jacqui Smith
John Smith
Anne Snelgrove
Sir Peter Soulsby
Helen Southworth
Mr. Spellar
Dr. Starkey
Ian Stewart
Dr. Stoate
Graham Stringer
Ms Gisela Stuart
Mr. Sutcliffe
Mark Tami
Ms Dari Taylor
David Taylor
Ms Thornberry
Mr. Timms
Paddy Tipping
Mr. Touhig
Jon Trickett
Dr. Desmond Turner
Mr. Neil Turner
Derek Twigg
Keith Vaz
Joan Walley
Lynda Waltho
Claire Ward
Mr. Wareing
Mr. Watson
Mr. Watts
Dr. Whitehead
Malcolm Wicks
Mr. Alan Williams
Mrs. Betty Williams
Mr. Wills
Mr. Winnick
Ms Rosie Winterton
Mike Wood
Mr. Woolas
Mr. Anthony Wright
Mr. Iain Wright
Dr. Tony Wright
Derek Wyatt

Tellers for the Noes:

Tony Cunningham and
Mr. John Heppell

Question accordingly negatived.

13 Jun 2005 : Column 54

Clause 11 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

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