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James Purnell: Obviously, that can be examined in Committee. Our concern would be whether such a definition would reduce the flexibility of all distributors to make worthwhile grants.

Mr. Swire: A number of confusing statements are coming out surrounding the Bill. As far as I am aware, Macmillan nurses are a charity, so I would be happy to put out a press statement tomorrow saying that they would get more money under the Conservatives' proposals. Given the confusion about additionality in particular, will the Minister undertake to speak with his Whips to ensure that we get more than the prescribed four days in Committee?

James Purnell: Clearly, that is a matter for the usual channels, but the Whips have been perfectly clear that the amount of time necessary for scrutiny will be granted. The delay until October is because of the link with the Olympics decision and to ensure proper scheduling of debates. We agree that the Bill must have proper scrutiny.

On Macmillan nurses, the hon. Gentleman and his colleagues opposed New Opportunities Fund money going on health and yet I have three examples of Macmillan nurses benefiting from NOF, with money spent on nursing care, on the Borders general hospital in Melrose and on a hospice in Moray. I presume that he agrees with such activities and that he therefore supports the idea of lottery money going on health.

Mr. Swire: I am not allowing the Minister to get away with this. The fact is that Macmillan nurses are a charity—charities are one of our original four pillars—and as such will be entitled to receive money.

James Purnell: It is a health charity that spends money on cancer, which clearly confirms that the Opposition's whole case has been blown apart as the hon. Gentleman thinks that money should be spent on health.

Mr. Horwood: I have worked with Macmillan Cancer Relief, which is a charity. The percentage reserved for charities under this Government has gone down from 20 per cent. to less than 20 per cent. and is now proposed to be abolished altogether. Under the current system, help would be given according to the charity's priorities, whereas under his system it would be given according to the Secretary of State's priorities.

James Purnell: No, the priorities would be those for which the charity had applied and which the distributors decided that they wanted to fund. [Interruption.] I will return to the matter later in my speech.

Pete Wishart: I accept the Minister's point that a significant proportion of the population would like to see lottery money spent on education and health. Can he
14 Jun 2005 : Column 217
tell me, however, what percentage of the UK population supports spending £1.5 billion of lottery money on infrastructure for the London Olympics bid?

James Purnell: The hon. Gentleman started off by wishing us all the best with the Olympics decision on 6 July, and the Government are united in support of our bid. I know that both main Opposition parties support us and that he does, too. If he wills the ends, he must will the means to have a fantastic Olympics as well.

On additionality, it is clear that the distinction should not be between the causes that we fund, but the projects. The attention of distributors should be focused on funding projects that are innovative, that pilot new developments, that do things that Government could not otherwise do, and that could bring organisations together in a way that Government might otherwise find difficult. I hope that I can reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend that that will continue under the Bill.

Let me deal with the issue of Government control, which was raised by the hon. Members for Cheltenham and for Hornchurch. It was claimed that the Government were seeking to control grants. That is the opposite of the fact. What happened was that people raised concerns about NOF having prescribed programmes set by the Secretary of State. We have listened to those concerns and, therefore, under the Big Lottery Fund, those decisions will be much further away from Government. The Government will set some high-level priorities and then it will be up to the Big Lottery Fund to formulate the programmes, as set out in the Bill. If we consider the new programmes put forward by the Big Lottery Fund, such as children's play, parks, support for the voluntary sector infrastructure, we will recognise that those are clearly additional and clearly welcome. I assume that the hon. Member for Hornchurch supports them. The whole thrust of the proposals is to put distributors further away from Government and closer to the public, and to give the public a much greater say in how these funds are spent. That is exactly right—it should be the public, not politicians, who have the keenest influence on how the money is spent.

I thought that the right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) was slightly churlish to say that the £65 million being spent through the People's Millions was a small amount of money. Most people would say that having £65 million allocated by the public is a very good initiative, and it is just the start of what we want to see—we want widespread consultation through citizens juries, through the telephone service and through whatever ways that distributors think are appropriate to ensure that they can properly reflect what people want. Therefore, the Bill puts distributors further from Government, much closer to the public and much further away from some Conservative Members' views, which we have established today.

Mr. David: On the critical issue of members of the public being more involved in the decision-making process, will the Minister join me in expressing some reservations about whether the internet can be effectively used in that respect given that socially excluded people do not have good access to the internet?
14 Jun 2005 : Column 218

James Purnell: Clearly, we must ensure that we consult the whole range of people and must not repeat the mistakes made at the beginning of the lottery, when only a subsection of the population was involved. My hon. Friend makes a good point.

On charities, I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Bridgend has been reassured by what was said about the reserved amount for charities. We guarantee that between 60 and 70 per cent. of Big Lottery Fund grants will go to the voluntary sector, which is an increase. On lifeboats, I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Blyth Valley (Mr. Campbell) that lifeboats can apply for grants. They have already received £2 million, and if he wants to write to me, I will be happy to examine the issue that he raised.

Finally, the hon. Member for Ludlow (Mr. Dunne) showed his keen interest in heritage, and he will clearly be campaigning on that during his time in the House. We have made it clear that the Heritage Lottery Fund will not lose any money under this Bill. I hope that he will be reassured that the power concerned would not remove any money from the Heritage Lottery Fund—it is merely there as a backstop if people are failing to spend their balances.

We should give credit where credit is due. Many people have paid tribute to John Major and the previous Conservative Government for creating and launching the lottery. Clearly, we should repeat that tribute. The Major Government will be remembered for three things: the national lottery, Black Wednesday and the cones hotline. One out of three is not bad. I pay tribute to Chris Smith for bringing the lottery much more into line with the people's priorities. When we came to power, nearly half the value of lottery grants was going to London and the south-east even though they contain only a quarter of the population of this country. Clearly, that was a scandal. The Tories were on their way to ruining the national lottery. They were turning it into a lottery run by the great and the good, for the great and the good. Chris Smith put that right, and the Labour Government changed that, so that lottery priorities are now much more in line with those of the people. The amount of money going to London and the south-east is now in line with the number of people in London and the south-east.

This Bill will put the distributors at a much greater distance from the Government. It will give the public much more power. It merges three distributors into one, and it will save money to put back into good causes. It will raise confidence in the national lottery, and I commend it to the House.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 197, Noes 290.

Division No. 12
[7.20 pm


Adam Afriyie
Mr. Peter Ainsworth
Danny Alexander
Mr. Atkinson
Mr. Bacon
Norman Baker
Tony Baldry
Gregory Barker
Mr. Baron
John Barrett
Mr. Beith
Mr. Benyon
Mr. Binley
Mr. Blunt
Mr. Bone
Peter Bottomley
Mr. Brady
Tom Brake
Mr. Brazier
Mr. Breed
James Brokenshire
Mr. Jeremy Browne
Angela Browning
Mr. Burns
Mr. Burrowes
Mr. Burstow
Alistair Burt
Lorely Burt
Sir John Butterfill
Dr. Cable
Sir Menzies Campbell
Mr. Carmichael
Mr. Carswell
Mr. Cash
Greg Clark
Mr. Clegg
Mr. Clifton-Brown
Mr. Cox
Mr. Crabb
Mr. Curry
Mr. Davey
Mr. Dorrell
Mrs. Dorries
Mr. Duncan Smith
Mr. Dunne
Mr. Ellwood
Mr. Evennett
Michael Fabricant
Mr. Fallon
Tim Farron
Lynne Featherstone
Mr. Mark Field
Mr. Forth
Mr. Don Foster
Mr. Gale
Mr. Garnier
Mr. Gauke
Mr. Gibb
Mrs. Gillan
Julia Goldsworthy
Mr. Paul Goodman
Mr. Goodwill
Michael Gove
Mr. Gray
Chris Grayling
Damian Green
Justine Greening
Mr. Gummer
Mr. Hague
Mr. Philip Hammond
Stephen Hammond
Mr. Harper
Nick Harvey
Mr. Heald
Mr. Heath
Mr. Heathcoat-Amory
John Hemming
Charles Hendry
Lady Hermon
Mr. Hoban
Mr. Hogg
Paul Holmes
Mr. Horwood
Stewart Hosie
Mr. Howard
David Howarth
Simon Hughes
Chris Huhne
Mr. Hurd
Mr. Jack
Mr. Stewart Jackson
Mr. Boris Johnson
Mr. David Jones
Daniel Kawczynski
Mr. Keetch
Robert Key
Miss Kirkbride
Mr. Greg Knight
Mrs. Laing
Mrs. Lait
Norman Lamb
Mr. Lancaster
Mr. Laws
Mr. Leech
Mr. Leigh
Mr. Letwin
Mr. Liddell-Grainger
Mr. Lidington
Mr. Lilley
Mr. Llwyd
Tim Loughton
Mr. Mackay
David Maclean
Mr. MacNeil
Mr. Maples
Mrs. May
Mr. McLoughlin
Patrick Mercer
Mrs. Maria Miller
Anne Milton
Mr. Moore
Mr. Moss
David Mundell
Dr. Murrison
Mr. Newmark
Mr. Stephen O'Brien
Mr. Oaten
Lembit Öpik
Mr. George Osborne
Richard Ottaway
Mr. Paice
Mr. Paterson
Mr. Pelling
John Penrose
Mr. Pickles
Adam Price
Mr. Prisk
Mark Pritchard
Dr. Pugh
Mr. Redwood
Mr. Robathan
Mr. Rogerson
Andrew Rosindell
Paul Rowen
Mr. Ruffley
Mr. Salmond
Mr. Sanders
Mr. Scott
Andrew Selous
Grant Shapps
Mr. Shepherd
Mr. Keith Simpson
Sir Robert Smith
Mrs. Spelman
Sir Michael Spicer
Bob Spink
Mr. Spring
Mr. Steen
Mr. Streeter
Mr. Graham Stuart
Andrew Stunell
Mr. Swayne
Jo Swinson
Mr. Swire
Mr. Syms
Matthew Taylor
Dr. Richard Taylor
Sarah Teather
John Thurso
Mr. Andrew Turner
Mr. Tyrie
Mr. Vaizey
Mr. Vara
Mrs. Villiers
Mr. Walker
Mr. Wallace
Mr. Waterson
Angela Watkinson
Steve Webb
Mr. Weir
Mr. Whittingdale
Bill Wiggin
Mr. Willetts
Hywel Williams
Mark Williams
Mr. Roger Williams
Stephen Williams
Mr. Willis
Jenny Willott
Mr. Rob Wilson
Ann Winterton
Sir Nicholas Winterton
Pete Wishart
Jeremy Wright
Mr. Yeo
Sir George Young
Richard Younger-Ross

Tellers for the Ayes:

Bob Russell and
Mr. John Randall


Ms Abbott
Nick Ainger
Mr. Bob Ainsworth
Mr. Douglas Alexander
Mr. Allen
Mr. David Anderson
Janet Anderson
Hilary Armstrong
Charlotte Atkins
Mr. Ian Austin
Mr. Bailey
Vera Baird
Ed Balls
Gordon Banks
Ms Barlow
Mr. Barron
John Battle
Miss Begg
Sir Stuart Bell
Mr. Benton
Roger Berry
Liz Blackman
Dr. Blackman-Woods
Hazel Blears
Mr. Blizzard
Mr. Borrow
Mr. Bradshaw
Kevin Brennan
Lyn Brown
Mr. Russell Brown
Mr. Des Browne
Chris Bryant
Ms Buck
Richard Burden
Colin Burgon
Andy Burnham
Ms Butler
Mr. Byrne
Mr. Caborn
David Cairns
Mr. Gregory Campbell
Mr. Ronnie Campbell
Mr. Caton
Mr. Cawsey
Colin Challen
Ben Chapman
Mr. Chaytor
Mr. Clapham
Ms Katy Clark
Paul Clark
Mr. Charles Clarke
Mr. Tom Clarke
Ann Clwyd
Mr. Coaker
Ann Coffey
Harry Cohen
Michael Connarty
Rosie Cooper
Yvette Cooper
Jim Cousins
Mr. Crausby
Mary Creagh
Jon Cruddas
Mrs. Cryer
John Cummings
Mr. Jim Cunningham
Tony Cunningham
Mrs. Curtis-Thomas
Mr. David
Mr. Davidson
Mrs. Dean
Mr. Dhanda
Mr. Dismore
Jim Dobbin
Frank Dobson
Mr. Dodds
Mr. Donaldson
Mr. Donohoe
Mr. Doran
Jim Dowd
Mr. Drew
Mrs. Dunwoody
Mark Durkan
Angela Eagle
Clive Efford
Mrs. Ellman
Paul Farrelly
Jim Fitzpatrick
Mr. Flello
Caroline Flint
Barbara Follett
Mr. Michael Foster (Worcester)
Michael Jabez Foster (Hastings and Rye)
Dr. Francis
Mike Gapes
Mr. Bruce George
Mr. Gerrard
Dr. Gibson
Linda Gilroy
Mr. Godsiff
Paul Goggins
Helen Goodman
Nia Griffith
Nigel Griffiths
Andrew Gwynne
Mr. Hain
Mr. Mike Hall
Patrick Hall
Mr. David Hamilton
Mr. Fabian Hamilton
Ms Harman
Mr. Tom Harris
Mr. Havard
John Healey
Mr. Hendrick
Mr. Hepburn
Mr. Heppell
Stephen Hesford
Ms Hewitt
David Heyes
Keith Hill
Meg Hillier
Mrs. Hodgson
Mr. Hood
Mr. Hoon
Kelvin Hopkins
Mr. George Howarth
Mr. Hoyle
Beverley Hughes
Mrs. Humble
Mr. Hutton
Dr. Iddon
Mr. Illsley
Huw Irranca-Davies
Glenda Jackson
Mrs. James
Mr. Jenkins
Ms Diana R. Johnson
Helen Jones
Mr. Kevan Jones
Lynne Jones
Mr. Martyn Jones
Mr. Joyce
Sir Gerald Kaufman
Ms Keeble
Ms Keeley
Alan Keen
Ann Keen
Mr. Kemp
Jane Kennedy
Mr. Khabra
Mr. Khan
Mr. Kidney
Mr. Kilfoyle
Jim Knight
Dr. Kumar
Dr. Ladyman
Mr. Lammy
Mr. Laxton
Mark Lazarowicz
David Lepper
Tom Levitt
Mr. Ivan Lewis
Tony Lloyd
Mr. Love
Ian Lucas
Mr. MacDougall
Andrew Mackinlay
Mr. MacShane
Fiona Mactaggart
Mr. Malik
Judy Mallaber
John Mann
Rob Marris
Mr. Marsden
Mr. Marshall-Andrews
Mr. Martlew
Mr. McAvoy
Steve McCabe
Kerry McCarthy
Sarah McCarthy-Fry
Mr. McCartney
Siobhain McDonagh
Mr. McFadden
Mr. McFall
Mr. McGovern
Mrs. McGuire
Shona McIsaac
Rosemary McKenna
Mr. McNulty
Mr. Meacher
Gillian Merron
Alun Michael
Mr. Milburn
Edward Miliband
Andrew Miller
Mr. Austin Mitchell
Anne Moffat
Laura Moffatt
Chris Mole
Mrs. Moon
Margaret Moran
Jessica Morden
Julie Morgan
Mr. Morley
Kali Mountford
Meg Munn
Mr. Jim Murphy
Dr. Naysmith
Dan Norris
Mr. Mike O'Brien
Mr. Olner
Sandra Osborne
Albert Owen
Rev. Ian Paisley
Dr. Palmer
Mr. Plaskitt
Mr. Pope
Stephen Pound
Mr. Prescott
Gwyn Prosser
Mr. Purchase
James Purnell
Bill Rammell
Mr. Raynsford
Mr. Andy Reed
Mr. Jamie Reed
Mrs. Riordan
John Robertson
Mr. Geoffrey Robinson
Mrs. Iris Robinson
Mr. Peter Robinson
Mr. Rooney
Mr. Roy
Joan Ruddock
Christine Russell
Joan Ryan
Martin Salter
Mr. Sarwar
Alison Seabeck
Jonathan Shaw
Mr. Sheerman
Jim Sheridan
Alan Simpson
David Simpson
Mr. Singh
Mr. Slaughter
Mr. Andrew Smith
Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Jacqui Smith
Anne Snelgrove
Sir Peter Soulsby
Helen Southworth
Mr. Spellar
Dr. Starkey
Ian Stewart
Dr. Stoate
Mr. Straw
Graham Stringer
Ms Gisela Stuart
Mark Tami
Ms Dari Taylor
David Taylor
Ms Thornberry
Mr. Timms
Paddy Tipping
Mr. Touhig
Jon Trickett
Mr. Truswell
Dr. Desmond Turner
Mr. Neil Turner
Derek Twigg
Joan Walley
Lynda Waltho
Claire Ward
Mr. Wareing
Mr. Watson
Dr. Whitehead
Malcolm Wicks
Mr. Alan Williams
Mrs. Betty Williams
Mr. Winnick
Ms Rosie Winterton
Mike Wood
Mr. Woodward
Mr. Woolas
Mr. Anthony Wright
Mr. Iain Wright
Dr. Tony Wright
Derek Wyatt

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Alan Campbell and
Mr. Dave Watts

Question accordingly negatived.

14 Jun 2005 : Column 222

Main Question put forthwith, pursuant to Standing Order No. 62 (Amendment on Second or Third Reading), and agreed to.

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