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The Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Nationality (Mr. Tony McNulty): I agree with the hon. and learned Member for Harborough (Mr. Garnier) that there were 33 speeches; his sort of made 34. May I also say that we can now, with some degree of confidence, rule him out of the forthcoming leadership election?

There were a range of speeches, which were in the main well tempered and good-humoured. I am grateful to the House for a debate in which Members expressed a range of views about details in the Bill and details that are yet to be subject to parliamentary discussion. I make no apology for repeating that this is enabling legislation. There is much still to be done in terms of detail, regulations and all the other elements.
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I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) on his consistency, at least, in being opposed to ID cards; I have no difficulty with his position.

The hon. Member for Winchester (Mr. Oaten) needs to be slightly more careful in what he says, because some of the points that he made raised obtuseness to a fine art. The notion that, even if we got to the stage where cards were used for public service entitlements, a woman who chose to have a termination would be in fear of that data being on the database is ludicrous in the extreme and unbecoming of the hon. Gentleman. His point about e-documents shows no understanding of what we are doing in terms of e-borders and the legislation that will be implemented in full by 2008.

My hon. Friend the Member for Knowsley, North and Sefton, East (Mr. Howarth) said that the project is feasible. I agree, of course, that there are further issues to be addressed; that was a theme throughout.

The right hon. and learned Member for Sleaford and North Hykeham (Mr. Hogg) said that the provision is intrusive and that he disagrees with it. He made more or less the same speech as he has made for the past four years, to no avail.

My hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Lynne Jones) made a very impressive speech on costs and technology suggesting that the items that we have put forward do not stack up. I simply do not agree with her in that regard, but we can have more debate on that matter.

The hon. Member for Belfast, East (Mr. Robinson) made a measured and tempered speech. The Bill does not refer in any way to foreigners or foreign Governments, but the answer to his real concern is that the Bill does not permit information to be disclosed except in the specific circumstances clearly set out in the Bill. The relevant authorities include the police, security services and UK Government Departments. Other UK public authorities may be added by order, but only public authorities under the Human Rights Act 1998—that is, only UK authorities. The Bill allows information to be passed to law enforcement authorities overseas, but only in the case of serious crime. That is not a new power but a replication of powers that are already in the Anti-terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001.

There is no power in the Bill to provide information to other Governments, including the Government of the Republic of Ireland. The measure contains no power to add other Governments by Order.

I congratulate the three maiden speakers. I am sad that time does not allow me to go into more detail about what they said, but all three spoke eloquently, and with a good deal of generosity about their predecessors, for which I am grateful.

I am sorry that my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, South (Mr. Harris) was a victim of identity fraud but he showed clearly how the application registration card—ARC—for asylum seekers can be used well.

I am pleased that my hon. Friend the Member for Hampstead and Highgate (Glenda Jackson) does not regard the Home Secretary as a snake oil salesman or a huckster. I am grateful for those comments. She is right that, in the past, there has been a great deal of
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overselling of the case for the card and all it can do. It can help and supplement but it cannot deal with terrorism in the way in which it was suggested the Government claimed—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: Order. The House must come to order.

Mr. McNulty: My hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), in his wisdom, made a telling contribution. I am sure that we shall discuss his comments in full subsequently.

The hon. Member for Ashford (Damian Green) made a speech.

My hon. Friend the Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Todd) made a fair speech, which was rooted in detail and dealt with some aspects of the benefits, to which we shall revert.

The hon. Member for Stone (Mr. Cash) mentioned Orwell and Lincoln—those were the highlights of his contribution.

I fear that my hon. Friend the Member for Broxtowe (Dr. Palmer) managed to support the hon. Member for Winchester on identity cards.

My hon. and learned Friend the Member for Medway (Mr. Marshall-Andrews) was wrong in his supposition that there will be an open book for adding data to the database. Clauses 1, 3 and 43 and schedule 1 make that clear. To suggest that DNA, health records, criminal records or other medical records can be included is plumb wrong.

The hon. Member for Lancaster and Wyre (Mr. Wallace) probably condemned himself to the Committee given his experience.

One of the most irresponsible contributions was made by the hon. Member for Hornsey and Wood Green (Lynne Featherstone). She spoke about DNA—she was wrong. She spoke about the impact on ethic minorities—she was wrong. The Bill is rooted in existing legislation on race relations, race discrimination and other matters.

I say in all candour to my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Denham) that, despite the agreement, if the prevailing wisdom of the usual channels is that there should be more time in Committee to scrutinise the Bill, let us have that discussion. The Government will be generous in their response. The deal was done, but if more time is required, let us talk about it. I have no problem with that.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hackney, North and Stoke Newington (Ms Abbott) is right that an election took place only two months ago. We stood collectively on a manifesto that stated:

That is at the heart of the Bill.

I say again to my right hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen that we are already involved in some pre-procurement discussions. If that needs to be more open and if we can make it more open before we go through the EU process, I will try to ensure that that happens.
28 Jun 2005 : Column 1256

My hon. Friend the Member for Colne Valley (Kali Mountford) made a point about concessions. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary said that we would reconsider the fee structure, concessions and other assorted elements.

The Bill is an enabling measure. Its purpose is to protect the individual's identity, not suppress the individual. It does not propose a plastic poll tax and is not tantamount to an attack on civil liberties. There is much to be done and I commend the Bill to the House.

Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. I shall be voting against Second Reading instead.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 314, Noes 283.

Division No. 20
[9.59 pm


Nick Ainger
Mr. Bob Ainsworth
Mr. Douglas Alexander
Mr. Allen
Mr. David Anderson
Janet Anderson
Hilary Armstrong
Charlotte Atkins
Mr. Ian Austin
John Austin
Mr. Bailey
Vera Baird
Ed Balls
Gordon Banks
Ms Barlow
Mr. Barron
John Battle
Hugh Bayley
Margaret Beckett
Miss Begg
Sir Stuart Bell
Hilary Benn
Mr. Benton
Roger Berry
Mr. Betts
Liz Blackman
Dr. Blackman-Woods
Mr. Blair
Hazel Blears
Mr. Blizzard
Mr. Blunkett
Mr. Borrow
Mr. Bradshaw
Mr. Gordon Brown
Lyn Brown
Mr. Nicholas Brown
Mr. Russell Brown
Mr. Des Browne
Chris Bryant
Ms Buck
Richard Burden
Colin Burgon
Andy Burnham
Ms Butler
Mr. Byers
Mr. Byrne
Mr. Caborn
David Cairns
Mr. Alan Campbell
Mr. Ronnie Campbell
Mr. Caton
Colin Challen
Mr. Chaytor
Paul Clark
Mr. Charles Clarke
Mr. Tom Clarke
Mr. Clelland
Ann Clwyd
Mr. Coaker
Ann Coffey
Harry Cohen
Michael Connarty
Mr. Robin Cook
Rosie Cooper
Yvette Cooper
Jim Cousins
Mr. Crausby
Mary Creagh
Jon Cruddas
Mrs. Cryer
John Cummings
Mr. Jim Cunningham
Tony Cunningham
Mr. Darling
Mr. David
Mr. Davidson
Mrs. Dean
Mr. Denham
Mr. Dhanda
Mr. Dismore
Jim Dobbin
Mr. Donohoe
Mr. Doran
Jim Dowd
Mr. Drew
Angela Eagle
Maria Eagle
Clive Efford
Mrs. Ellman
Mrs. Engel
Jeff Ennis
Bill Etherington
Paul Farrelly
Mr. Frank Field
Jim Fitzpatrick
Mr. Flello
Caroline Flint
Barbara Follett
Mr. Michael Foster (Worcester)
Michael Jabez Foster (Hastings and Rye)
Dr. Francis
Mike Gapes
Barry Gardiner
Linda Gilroy
Mr. Godsiff
Paul Goggins
Helen Goodman
Nia Griffith
Nigel Griffiths
Mr. Grogan
Andrew Gwynne
Mr. Mike Hall
Patrick Hall
Mr. David Hamilton
Mr. Fabian Hamilton
Mr. Hanson
Ms Harman
Mr. Tom Harris
Mr. Havard
John Healey
Mr. Henderson
Mr. Hendrick
Mr. Hepburn
Mr. Heppell
Lady Hermon
Stephen Hesford
Ms Hewitt
David Heyes
Keith Hill
Meg Hillier
Margaret Hodge
Mrs. Hodgson
Mr. Hood
Mr. Hoon
Phil Hope
Mr. George Howarth
Dr. Howells
Mr. Hoyle
Beverley Hughes
Mrs. Humble
Mr. Hutton
Dr. Iddon
Mr. Illsley
Huw Irranca-Davies
Mrs. James
Mr. Jenkins
Alan Johnson
Ms Diana R. Johnson
Helen Jones
Mr. Kevan Jones
Mr. Martyn Jones
Tessa Jowell
Mr. Joyce
Sir Gerald Kaufman
Ms Keeble
Ms Keeley
Alan Keen
Ann Keen
Ruth Kelly
Mr. Kemp
Jane Kennedy
Mr. Khabra
Mr. Khan
Mr. Kidney
Mr. Kilfoyle
Jim Knight
Dr. Kumar
Dr. Ladyman
Mr. Lammy
Mr. Laxton
Mark Lazarowicz
David Lepper
Tom Levitt
Mr. Ivan Lewis
Martin Linton
Tony Lloyd
Ian Lucas
Mr. MacDougall
Andrew Mackinlay
Mr. MacShane
Fiona Mactaggart
Mr. Mahmood
Mr. Malik
Judy Mallaber
John Mann
Rob Marris
Mr. Marsden
Mr. Marshall
Mr. Martlew
Mr. McAvoy
Steve McCabe
Chris McCafferty
Kerry McCarthy
Sarah McCarthy-Fry
Mr. McCartney
Siobhain McDonagh
Mr. McFadden
Mr. McFall
Mr. McGovern
Mrs. McGuire
Shona McIsaac
Ann McKechin
Rosemary McKenna
Mr. McNulty
Mr. Meale
Gillian Merron
Alun Michael
Mr. Milburn
Mr. David Miliband
Edward Miliband
Andrew Miller
Anne Moffat
Laura Moffatt
Chris Mole
Mrs. Moon
Margaret Moran
Jessica Morden
Julie Morgan
Mr. Morley
Kali Mountford
Mr. Mudie
Mr. Mullin
Meg Munn
Mr. Denis Murphy
Mr. Jim Murphy
Mr. Paul Murphy
Dr. Naysmith
Dan Norris
Mr. Mike O'Brien
Mr. O'Hara
Mr. Olner
Sandra Osborne
Dr. Palmer
Ian Pearson
Mr. Plaskitt
Mr. Pope
Stephen Pound
Bridget Prentice
Mr. Gordon Prentice
Dawn Primarolo
Gwyn Prosser
Mr. Purchase
James Purnell
Bill Rammell
Mr. Raynsford
Mr. Andy Reed
Mr. Jamie Reed
John Reid
John Robertson
Mr. Geoffrey Robinson
Mr. Rooney
Mr. Roy
Chris Ruane
Joan Ruddock
Christine Russell
Joan Ryan
Martin Salter
Mr. Sarwar
Alison Seabeck
Jonathan Shaw
Mr. Sheerman
Jim Sheridan
Mr. Simon
Mr. Singh
Mr. Slaughter
Mr. Andrew Smith
Ms Angela C. Smith (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Angela E. Smith (Basildon)
Jacqui Smith
Anne Snelgrove
Sir Peter Soulsby
Helen Southworth
Mr. Spellar
Dr. Starkey
Ian Stewart
Dr. Stoate
Dr. Strang
Mr. Straw
Graham Stringer
Ms Gisela Stuart
Mr. Sutcliffe
Mark Tami
Ms Dari Taylor
David Taylor
Mr. Thomas
Ms Thornberry
Mr. Timms
Paddy Tipping
Mr. Todd
Mr. Touhig
Jon Trickett
Dr. Desmond Turner
Mr. Neil Turner
Derek Twigg
Kitty Ussher
Keith Vaz
Joan Walley
Lynda Waltho
Claire Ward
Mr. Watson
Mr. Watts
Dr. Whitehead
Malcolm Wicks
Mr. Alan Williams
Mrs. Betty Williams
Mr. Wills
Ms Rosie Winterton
Mr. Woodward
Mr. Woolas
Mr. Anthony Wright
David Wright
Mr. Iain Wright
Dr. Tony Wright
Derek Wyatt

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Ian Cawsey and
Kevin Brennan


Ms Abbott
Adam Afriyie
Mr. Peter Ainsworth
Danny Alexander
Mr. Amess
Mr. Ancram
Mr. Arbuthnot
Mr. Atkinson
Mr. Bacon
Norman Baker
Tony Baldry
Gregory Barker
Mr. Baron
John Barrett
Mr. Beith
Mr. Benyon
John Bercow
Sir Paul Beresford
Mr. Binley
Mr. Blunt
Mr. Bone
Mr. Boswell
Peter Bottomley
Mr. Brady
Tom Brake
Mr. Brazier
Mr. Breed
James Brokenshire
Annette Brooke
Mr. Jeremy Browne
Angela Browning
Malcolm Bruce
Mr. Burns
Mr. Burrowes
Mr. Burstow
Alistair Burt
Lorely Burt
Sir John Butterfill
Dr. Cable
Mr. Cameron
Mr. Gregory Campbell
Sir Menzies Campbell
Mr. Carmichael
Mr. Carswell
Mr. Cash
Mr. Chope
Mr. Clappison
Greg Clark
Ms Katy Clark
Mr. Clegg
Derek Conway
Frank Cook
Jeremy Corbyn
Sir Patrick Cormack
Mr. Cox
Mr. Crabb
Mr. Curry
Mr. Davey
David T.C. Davies (Monmouth)
Philip Davies
Mr. Quentin Davies
David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden)
Mr. Djanogly
Mr. Dodds
Mr. Donaldson
Mr. Dorrell
Mrs. Dorries
James Duddridge
Mr. Duncan
Mr. Duncan Smith
Mr. Dunne
Mrs. Dunwoody
Mark Durkan
Mr. Ellwood
Mr. Evans
Mr. Evennett
Michael Fabricant
Mr. Fallon
Tim Farron
Lynne Featherstone
Mr. Mark Field
Mark Fisher
Paul Flynn
Mr. Forth
Mr. Don Foster
Dr. Fox
Mr. Francois
Mr. Fraser
Mr. Galloway
Mr. Garnier
Mr. Gauke
Andrew George
Mr. Gibb
Sandra Gidley
Mrs. Gillan
Julia Goldsworthy
Mr. Paul Goodman
Mr. Goodwill
Michael Gove
Mr. Gray
Chris Grayling
Damian Green
Justine Greening
Mr. Greenway
Mr. Grieve
Mr. Philip Hammond
Stephen Hammond
Mr. Hancock
Mr. Hands
Mr. Harper
Dr. Evan Harris
Nick Harvey
Mr. Hayes
Mr. Heald
Mr. Heath
John Hemming
Charles Hendry
Mr. Herbert
Mr. Hoban
Kate Hoey
Mr. Hogg
Mr. Hollobone
Mr. Holloway
Paul Holmes
Kelvin Hopkins
Mr. Horam
Mr. Horwood
Stewart Hosie
Mr. Howard
David Howarth
Mr. Gerald Howarth
Simon Hughes
Chris Huhne
Mr. Hunt
Mr. Hurd
Mr. Jack
Glenda Jackson
Mr. Stewart Jackson
Mr. Jenkin
Mr. Boris Johnson
Mr. David Jones
Lynne Jones
Mr. Keetch
Mr. Charles Kennedy
Robert Key
Miss Kirkbride
Mr. Greg Knight
Susan Kramer
Mrs. Laing
Mrs. Lait
Norman Lamb
Mr. Lancaster
Mr. Lansley
Mr. Laws
Mr. Leech
Mr. Leigh
Mr. Letwin
Mr. Liddell-Grainger
Mr. Lidington
Mr. Lilley
Mr. Llwyd
Tim Loughton
Peter Luff
Mr. Mackay
David Maclean
Mr. MacNeil
Anne Main
Mr. Malins
Mr. Maples
Mr. Marshall-Andrews
Mr. Maude
Mrs. May
Dr. McCrea
Dr. Alasdair McDonnell
John McDonnell
Mr. McGrady
Miss McIntosh
Mr. McLoughlin
Patrick Mercer
Mrs. Maria Miller
Anne Milton
Mr. Andrew Mitchell
Mr. Moore
Mr. Moss
Greg Mulholland
David Mundell
Dr. Murrison
Mr. Newmark
Mr. Stephen O'Brien
Mr. Oaten
Lembit Öpik
Mr. Paice
Rev. Ian Paisley
Mr. Paterson
Mr. Pelling
Mike Penning
John Penrose
Mr. Pickles
Adam Price
Mr. Prisk
Mark Pritchard
Dr. Pugh
Mr. Redwood
Mr. Alan Reid
Sir Malcolm Rifkind
Mrs. Riordan
Mr. Robathan
Angus Robertson
Hugh Robertson
Mr. Laurence Robertson
Mrs. Iris Robinson
Mr. Peter Robinson
Mr. Rogerson
Andrew Rosindell
Paul Rowen
Mr. Ruffley
Bob Russell
Mr. Salmond
Mr. Sanders
Mr. Scott
Andrew Selous
Grant Shapps
Mr. Shepherd
Clare Short
Mark Simmonds
Alan Simpson
David Simpson
Mr. Keith Simpson
John Smith
Sir Robert Smith
Mrs. Spelman
Sir Michael Spicer
Bob Spink
Mr. Spring
Sir John Stanley
Mr. Steen
Mr. Streeter
Mr. Graham Stuart
Andrew Stunell
Mr. Swayne
Jo Swinson
Mr. Swire
Mr. Syms
Sir Peter Tapsell
David Taylor
Mr. Ian Taylor
Matthew Taylor
Dr. Richard Taylor
Sarah Teather
John Thurso
David Tredinnick
Mr. Andrew Turner
Mr. Tyrie
Mr. Vaizey
Mr. Vara
Peter Viggers
Mrs. Villiers
Mr. Walker
Mr. Wallace
Mr. Wareing
Angela Watkinson
Steve Webb
Mr. Weir
Mr. Whittingdale
Bill Wiggin
Mr. Willetts
Hywel Williams
Mark Williams
Mr. Roger Williams
Stephen Williams
Mr. Willis
Jenny Willott
Mr. Wilshire
Mr. Rob Wilson
Sammy Wilson
Mr. Winnick
Ann Winterton
Sir Nicholas Winterton
Pete Wishart
Mike Wood
Jeremy Wright
Mr. Yeo
Richard Younger-Ross

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Henry Bellingham and
Mr. John Randall

Question accordingly agreed to.

28 Jun 2005 : Column 1260

Mr. Heath: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. You and the whole House will have heard the Home Secretary, in response to an intervention from the hon. Member for South Staffordshire (Sir Patrick Cormack)—the Minister of State repeated the point later in his peroration—say that the Government would consider the Bill's committal to either a Special Standing Committee or a Joint Committee. Would it be in order for the Government to withdraw their programme motion, and am I correct in saying that under Standing Order No. 63, it would be perfectly in order to put down an alternative motion of committal, without notice, this evening? Has there been any indication that that will take place?

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