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Nigel Griffiths: The House is rather good at learning from experience. I have set out how the motion would have worked historically. I hope that it commands the support of the House, and that the House would not want to axe a Member who had not had the chance to benefit from two full terms or, as in the example that I gave from 1992, unnecessarily curtail the Member's term of service to the Committee.

Andrew Mackinlay: My hon. Friend's 1974 scenario does not stack up. After a short Parliament, the new Parliament could, with unanimity, revise Standing Orders to meet that set of circumstances. It would disregard the previous Parliament. I have to say to my hon. Friend, "Come off it.". He is struggling to use the 1974 case as an argument.

Nigel Griffiths: I am sorry that I have not convinced my hon. Friend. I did not think I was struggling to use the example as an argument. The term limitation on Chairmen of Select Committees is designed to stop people, no matter how competent, being appointed almost in perpetuity, or as long as they are Members of the House. That is why we are trying to lay down rules which, I believe, will work to the advantage of the House and are fairly simple and straightforward, but give the flexibility that a common-sense approach would allow.

Let me move on to some of the other issues that were raised. The hon. Member for Epsom and Ewell raised the time taken to set up Select Committees and compared that to 2001, but it is not a fair comparison. Since I was appointed Deputy Leader of the House, I have tried to avoid hurtful phrases, so I shall say that the result this time for the hon. Gentleman's party was less disastrous than in 2001. It necessitated at least three changes to the way in which we approached Select Committees. There have been negotiations between the parties on the size of the Select Committees. There have been discussions about which party should seek to have its Members chairing certain Select Committees, and how many Select Committees it is fair for each party to chair. That has been the subject of tough negotiation—

It being four and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings, Madam Deputy Speaker put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day].

Administration Committee


13 Jul 2005 : Column 912

Madam Deputy Speaker then proceeded to put the remaining Questions necessary to dispose of the business to be concluded at that hour.

Finance and Services Committee


Term Limits for Chairmen of Select Committees

Motion made, and Question put,

The House divided: Ayes 233, Noes 102.

Division No. 38
[5.14 pm


Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Banks, Gordon
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Bayley, Hugh
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Butler, Ms Dawn
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, rh Mr. Robin
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Crausby, Mr. David
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, Mr. David
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Heppell, Mr. John
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Horam, Mr. John
Hosie, Stewart
Howarth, Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lazarowicz, Mark
Levitt, Tom
Lidington, Mr. David
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Luff, Peter
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mann, John
Marshall, Mr. David
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCarthy, Kerry
McDonnell, John
McFall, rh Mr. John
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Price, Adam
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Rammell, Bill
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, John
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Selous, Andrew
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, Matthew
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Ward, Claire
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Hywel
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Parmjit Dhanda and
Mr. Alan Campbell


Afriyie, Adam
Baldry, Tony
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bottomley, Peter
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Butterfill, Sir John
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clark, Ms Katy
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Cook, Frank
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davies, Philip
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Efford, Clive
Evennett, Mr. David
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Hayes, Mr. John
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hermon, Lady
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Loughton, Tim
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
Main, Anne
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penrose, John
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Scott, Mr. Lee
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spink, Bob
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, David
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Watkinson, Angela
Wiggin, Bill
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Eric Forth and
Mr. Mark Harper

Question accordingly agreed to.

13 Jul 2005 : Column 915

Select Committees (Size of Committees)


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