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Mrs. May: I am sorry that the Minister is getting so many interventions on this point, but I want to make a final attempt at clarification. It seems to me that the situation is this: the motion that we shall be asked to consider this evening states that the Select Committee cannot consider Reading as a terminus for the line; the Secretary of State, in his speech, said that the Select Committee can consider Reading as a terminus for the line; the legal advice from Officers of the House is that the Select Committee cannot consider Reading as the terminus for the line; the Minister has just said that the Select Committee can consider Reading, but it might not think that it can consider Reading in which case it can ask the Government if it may consider Reading. Will the Minister please clarify the situation?

Derek Twigg: We believe that it could. If the Committee comes back to us, we shall consider its recommendations.

Mr. Duncan: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker. We are receiving conflicting advice and the House is very confused. I think it needs guidance from the Chair on what the motion actually means. Ministers are saying one thing, but we believe that the advice we are receiving from Clerks may say something else. It is therefore, I suggest, a matter for the Chair to give guidance to the House about what we are actually voting on and what it will mean in practice. May I seek guidance from the Chair about whether we can or cannot consider Reading under the motion before us?

Madam Deputy Speaker: The Government laid the motion before the House and it will be the responsibility of the Committee to interpret it, with advice, if necessary, from the Clerks of the House.

Derek Twigg: I shall continue to reply to the constituency issues that hon. Members have raised.

My hon. Friend the Member for Hayes and Harlington (John McDonnell) raised several issues about the role of Network Rail, which my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State made clear earlier. My hon. Friend also referred to the effects on services and freight. That again was made clear earlier: we do not expect major effects on freight. There will be issues to consider during the construction phase, but we shall be talking to all partners and all bodies to move the process forward and come to agreement through negotiation. The compensation levels that he mentioned will be set as per the standard compensation arrangements.

The right hon. Member for Maidenhead (Mrs. May) mentioned the Reading issue, so let me make it clear why we have not included Reading. Obviously, we shall consult on that process, but we believe that the case is not made because of the passenger numbers and because we do not believe that passengers from Reading would use that service when they can use a non-stopping service to Paddington.

My hon. Friend the Member for Dagenham (Jon Cruddas) made a powerful point about economic development and regeneration and one of the many
19 Jul 2005 : Column 1213
benefits of Crossrail is that it will contribute to the regeneration of large parts of London, particularly the east of London. He made the point about capacity and population movements and the importance of transport in that respect.

Mr. Jim McGovern (Dundee, West) (Lab): I have listened intently and patiently to the debate and understand why most hon. Members have spoken about how this project affects their constituencies. However, I would like to ask about the national benefits. How many jobs would be created over the lifetime of the project and would the Government be able to legislate to ensure that UK companies are looked upon favourably in the tendering process?

Derek Twigg: No, we cannot legislate, but my hon. Friend raises an important point. Obviously, the chief beneficiaries are London and the south-east, but Crossrail has national benefits in terms of access to London, which hundreds of thousands of commuters use each day coming from different parts of the United Kingdom. Jobs will be created in construction and people will be employed in and around London and elsewhere as a result of the awarding of contracts, so there are national benefits that provide employment around the country.

My hon. Friend the Member for Ealing, Acton and Shepherd's Bush (Mr. Slaughter) asked about airport access and BAA. There are issues there and we are talking to BAA. In fact, I recently wrote to the chief executive to discuss the concerns that BAA had.

The hon. Member for Romford (Andrew Rosindell) mentioned the potential loss of playing fields in his constituency. There will be discussions with the London borough of Havering about how those effects might be mitigated. I understand the environmental issues that he raised that affect his constituents and I am sure that he will petition strongly during the Select Committee process.

It is important to remind the House of the benefits that Crossrail will bring. I have touched on some briefly but I want to continue to outline some of those that contribute to the Bill's importance. First, Crossrail will support the development of London as a world city and its role as the financial centre of the UK and Europe. Secondly, it will support the economic growth of London and its key regeneration areas by tackling congestion and the lack of capacity on the rail network. Thirdly, it will improve rail access to and across London, reducing existing journey times.

But Crossrail is a project of national significance.

Mr. Duncan: Will the hon. Gentleman give way one more time?

Derek Twigg: No.

Mr. Duncan rose—

Derek Twigg: No. I am not giving way.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. It is becoming clear that the Minister does not intend to give way at the moment.
19 Jul 2005 : Column 1214

Mr. Duncan: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is a serious point. We are in a very grey area between what the Minister is saying and what the House believes it may be voting on. All I am saying is, may I, through you, invite the Minister to make it absolutely clear that petitions can include Reading, so that there is no doubt in the eyes of tonight's proceedings or potential judicial review about what we are voting for?

Mr. Deputy Speaker: I understand the point that the hon. Gentleman is making but that is rather more a matter of debate at this stage than a point of order. But perhaps the Minister would like to respond.

Derek Twigg: No, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have made the position very clear. [Hon. Members: "No, you have not."] I am not going to go over the ground again. In terms of the transport benefits, Crossrail will enable better access to the capital for the hundreds of thousands of workers who commute into London every day and provide strategic interchanges for local, national and international business and leisure activities. I commend the Bill to the House.

Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 394, Noes 24.

Division No. 44
[9.59 pm


Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Beckett, rh Margaret
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benn, rh Hilary
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Bone, Mr. Peter
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brake, Tom
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cook, rh Mr. Robin
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donaldson, Mr. Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Duncan, Mr. Alan
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ennis, Jeff
Etherington, Bill
Fabricant, Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Helen
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Mr. Dai
Hayes, Mr. John
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Mr. Martin
Howarth, David
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunter, Mr. Mark
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Maples, Mr. John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meale, Mr. Alan
Mercer, Patrick
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Mr. David
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, James
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, Mr. Alan
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Selous, Andrew
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Simpson, David
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Stanley, rh Sir John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swinson, Jo
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walker, Mr. Charles
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Watkinson, Angela
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Mark
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Ian Cawsey and
Tony Cunningham


Afriyie, Adam
Amess, Mr. David
Binley, Mr. Brian
Davies, Philip
Duddridge, James
Forth, rh Mr. Eric
Galloway, Mr. George
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Hosie, Stewart
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Luff, Peter
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Penrose, John
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Spink, Bob
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walter, Mr. Robert
Weir, Mr. Mike
Williams, Hywel
Wishart, Pete

Tellers for the Noes:

Andrew Rosindell and
Mr. Mark Lancaster

Question accordingly agreed to.

19 Jul 2005 : Column 1217

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