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Amendments made: No. 56, in clause 23, page 22, line 28, after 'authority', insert 'or senior judge'.
No. 57, page 22, line 33, after 'authority', insert 'or senior judge'.
No. 58, page 22, line 33, leave out 'special'.
No. 59, page 22, line 36, at end insert—
'( ) In sub-paragraph (4) of that paragraph (application of paragraphs 30(3), and 31 to 34), at the end insert "but, in relation to an application made by virtue of sub-paragraph (1A)(b) to a senior judge, as if—
(a) references to a judicial authority were references to a senior judge; and
(b) references to the judicial authority in question were references to the senior judge in question."
( ) In sub-paragraph (5) of that paragraph, after "authority" insert "or senior judge".
( ) After sub-paragraph (6) of that paragraph insert—
"(7) In this paragraph and paragraph 37 'senior judge' means a judge of the High Court or of the Court of Session."'.
No. 60, in clause 23, page 22, line 45, after 'authority', insert 'or senior judge'.—[Hazel Blears.]
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(2) The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument provide—
(a) that all or any of those provisions which are in force shall continue in force for a period not exceeding twelve months from the coming into operation of the order; or
(b) that all or any of those provisions which are for the time being in force shall cease to be in force.
(3) No order shall be made under subsection (2) above unless a draft of the order has been laid before and approved by a resolution of each House of Parliament.'. —[Mr. Winnick.]
Brought up, read the First and Second time, and added to the Bill.
The Minister for Policing, Security and Community Safety (Hazel Blears): I beg to move amendment No. 34, in page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
'(A1) This section applies to a statement that is likely to be understood by members of the public to whom it is published as a direct or indirect encouragement or other inducement to them to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences.
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he publishes a statement to which this section applies or causes another to publish such a statement on his behalf; and
(b) at the time he does so, he intends the statement to be understood as mentioned in subsection (A1) or is reckless as to whether or not it is likely to be so understood.
(1A) For the purposes of this section the cases in which a person is to be taken as reckless as to whether a statement is likely to be understood as mentioned in subsection (A1) include any case in which he could not reasonably have failed to be aware of that likelihood.'.
Mr. Speaker: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments: No. 19, in page 1, line 5, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
'(A1) This section applies to a statement that is likely to be understood by members of the public to whom it is published as a direct or indirect encouragement or other inducement to them to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences.
(1) A person commits an offence if—
(a) he publishes a statement to which this section applies or causes another to publish such a statement on his behalf; and
(b) at the time he does so, he intends the statement to be understood as mentioned in subsection (A1) or is reckless as to whether or not it is likely to be so understood.
No. 14, in page 1, line 6, leave out from 'statement' to end of line 7 on page 2 and insert
', which may include the glorification of the commission or preparation (whether in the past, in the future or generally) of acts of terrorism or Convention offences, or causes another to publish a statement on his behalf; and
(b) at the time he does so he—
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(i) knows or believes that members of the public to whom the statement is addressed or is to be published will, or
(ii) is recklessly indifferent to the likelihood that such persons would,
understand it as a direct or indirect encouragement or inducement to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences.'.
No. 2, in page 1, line 8, leave out paragraph (b) and insert—
'(b) at the time he does so, he intends or is recklessly indifferent to the fact that the publication will be understood as a direct or indirect encouragement or inducement to the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism or Convention offences.'.
No. 21, in page 1, line 9, leave out from 'believes' to end of line 10.
No. 64, in page 1, line 14, at end insert
'and
(c) either—
(i) he intends that the statement will have that effect, or
(ii) he is reckless as to whether the statement will have that effect upon reasonable members of the public.'.
Government amendments Nos. 35 to 43, 49 and 50.
5.15 pm
Hazel Blears: The amendments respond to points that were raised in Committee and seek to allay some of the concerns that were expressed then. They also, I should point out, build on some of the concepts—[Interruption.]
Mr. Speaker: Order. It is only fair to the Minister that hon. Members leave the Chamber quietly.
Hazel Blears: I am only sorry that this debate is not as much of a draw as the main attraction earlier, but I will do my best to make it as interesting as possible. The amendments build on some of the concepts in the amendments tabled in Committee by the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) and his hon. Friends.
As the House will recall, we had quite a lengthy debate in Committee on the issue of intent and, more particularly, how we ensure that the offence of encouragement to terrorism in clause 1 of the Bill is workable—which is what I said I wanted it to be—but does not cast its net unduly wide. I undertook to examine that issue further because I wanted to ensure that we did not catch people who clearly were not in any way intending to encourage others to commit acts of terrorism. We have gone back to the drawing board and come up with a formulation that we hope meets those objectives.
The key amendment in this group is amendment No. 34, which replaces clause 1(1). It provides that the offence in clause 1 can be committed in only two circumstances. Both of those circumstances were in amendments that we discussed last week, so the concepts have already been properly explored. The first set of circumstances is where a person makes or publishes a statement and intends it to be understood by
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its audience as an encouragement to carry out acts of terrorism. I do not think that anyone could object to that being a criminal offence, and we have put the word "intends" on the face of the Bill so there is complete clarity about the conduct that is meant.
The second set of circumstances is where a person makes or publishes a statement and is reckless as to whether or not it is likely to be understood by his or her audience as an encouragement to carry out acts of terrorism. Again, for clarity, we have put the word "reckless" on the face of the Bill, and that was a word drawn from Opposition amendments in Committee.
We have also defined "reckless" for these purposes as being a case where the person could not reasonably have failed to have been aware of the consequences of his action. Again, I am sure that no one could object to this provision. If an individual makes a statement encouraging others to commit an act of terrorism and could not reasonably have failed to realise the likely consequences of his actions, that should clearly be an offence.
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