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Mr. Woodward: Organised crime is a serious threat, and we do not need a report to tell us that. I think that everybody in the House recognises that it is a long-term threat. We believe that we have the necessary measures outside these special provisions to be able to deal with that.
Mr. Dodds:
The Minister says that there are measures to deal with the situation. How do we deal with a situation where someone is before a court and is linked to a paramilitary organisation and involved in
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criminality and organised crime? Is there not a real danger that a jury, in such circumstances, would be frightened to convict? What is the rationale for doing away with the provision that would allow, in such cases, a Diplock court to continue?
Mr. Woodward: Without wishing to be drawn back to the discussion on Diplock courts, which we had in the previous debate, it is our judgment that the timetable that we have set out in the Bill is a realistic one with which to proceed. However, we have put the caveats in place. There can be an extension of a further period of 12 months. At the end of that, should the forecast not be met—we believe that it should be—we would then be able to review the security situation and put forward appropriate measures. It must stand firmly and clearly in the minds of all right hon. and hon. Members that we will protect the security of the people of Northern Ireland at all costs.
Although my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State and I have committed to a programme of security normalisation that culminates in the repeal of the provisions that we are discussing, we have continued to say that we do not take the environment for granted. The Bill contains provisions to extend the life of part 7 for a further year after 2007. It will be used if the enabling environment is not sustained and security normalisation is not possible within that time frame. I am sure that all hon. Members want to see a robust system in place. We believe that the Bill will ensure for the foreseeable future that the special measures necessary to safeguard the security of people in Northern Ireland are robust and are in place, but that there is realisation that there are causes for optimism for the future.
Counter-terrorist legislation, including the part 7 provisions, is an exceptional measure, and it must be appropriate to the security situation. Coming back would give Parliament the opportunity to debate in detail what provision would be necessary and most appropriate at that time. We feel that this is the right approach. Therefore, we urge the House to resist the amendments.
Mr. Gregory Campbell: I hoped that the Minister would indicate in what way the implementation of the amendments standing in my name, and supported by my colleagues, would inhibit the progress that he has outlined. I failed to hear that. The House is faced with an option. We can see progress made over the next few years and have legislation that withers on the vine because it is no longer required, or the situation in Northern Ireland—continuing terrorism, which either increases or continues to decrease—continues and we require legislation. That is the choice. My colleagues and I are firmly convinced that it would be better to have legislation in place for a specified period beyond 2008, up to and including 2012, to give an assurance to peace-loving and law-abiding people in Northern Ireland that the law will be there.
Mr. Woodward:
We do give the assurance to people in Northern Ireland that we will safeguard the security situation. In our judgment, however, we will have reached the point by 2007 whereby the special provisions in the Bill need no longer be in place, giving ourselves the safety net, if it is necessary, to extend them by another 12 months. We are saying to the hon. Gentleman, his hon. Friends and the people of Northern Ireland this afternoon that should
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we judge in 2007–08 that the security situation does not allow for those special measures to be repealed, we will have no hesitation in making the right moves to protect the special nature of the people of Northern Ireland should that be required.
Mr. Campbell: The Minister answers one side of the argument, but not the other. What would be negative or nugatory about extending the provisions to 2012, even if we find that there was no essential requirement for that legislation to be in place? If it was in place but was not required because the situation had improved substantially, what on earth would we lose as a community and a society by having the belt-and-braces approach? Neither I nor my colleagues have received an answer from the Minister.
3.30 pm
Mr. Laurence Robertson: Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern, as I alluded to the 2007–08 deadline, that because of the introduction of the other Bill, which we are considering in Committee next week, an awful lot of people who were previously involved in terrorism might be living back in Northern Ireland by that time? Does not that make the situation in 2007–08 potentially worse, not better?
Mr. Campbell: I thank the hon. Gentleman for that timely intervention, and that is exactly the case. In a previous debate within the past few weeks, it was concluded across the Chamber that, in relation to terrorism in Northern Ireland and moves forward, caution ought to be the watchword. A cautious approach would be to implement the amendments that extend the life of the Bill to 2012, ensuring that both law-abiding people and criminals and terrorists get the message that this Government will ensure that whatever legislation is required will be in place to meet the threat of terror, whether in the next 18 months or four or five years beyond that. For that reason, we will press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 134, Noes 325.
AYES
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baldry, Tony
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, Philip
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Forth, rh Mr. Eric
Francois, Mr. Mark
Gale, Mr. Roger
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Hayes, Mr. John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Spicer, Sir Michael
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Jeffrey M. Donaldson and
Mr. Peter Atkinson
NOES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, Danny
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Beckett, rh Margaret
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benton, Mr. Joe
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brake, Tom
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, Malcolm
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Cairns, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clegg, Mr. Nick
Clelland, Mr. David
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
Davey, Mr. Edward
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Etherington, Bill
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Gardiner, Barry
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hanson, Mr. David
Harris, Mr. Tom
Harvey, Nick
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Holmes, Paul
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, David
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Knight, Jim
Kramer, Susan
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Lammy, Mr. David
Laws, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Merron, Gillian
Miliband, rh Mr. David
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purnell, James
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, Mr. Alan
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rowen, Paul
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, John
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swinson, Jo
Tami, Mark
Taylor, David
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Webb, Steve
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Alan Campbell and
Mr. John Heppell
Question accordingly negatived.
30 Nov 2005 : Column 317
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