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Lorely Burt: I was just about to come to that subject. The Minister is keen on bringing Lord Carlile into the debate, so I shall remind the House of what he said about section 108. He said:

"I am totally unpersuaded by the arguments for its retention . . . Section 108 could be repealed without any measurable disadvantage to the cause of public protection from terrorism. It is a provision that lies uncomfortably in the broader context of normalisation and the Good Friday Agreement."

Mr. Woodward: I accept Lord Carlile's observations and I agree that section 108 lies uncomfortably with normalisation, but we are having to renew this legislation because we have not yet reached normalisation. I repeat my question. If the hon. Lady were to succeed in amending the Bill, what would she use to bring those individual cases that I have mentioned to court?

4 pm

Lorely Burt: The Minister has referred several times to the people of Omagh and the incidents in 1998—the principal cause of the introduction of the legislation. However, that was seven years ago and we are now trying to move towards normalisation.

Mr. Woodward: I have just explained to the hon. Lady that we have been advised by the police that the
 
30 Nov 2005 : Column 321
 
provision could be useful in ongoing cases in allowing people to be brought to court. Omagh may have been seven years ago, but it has taken a long time to collect the evidence. If the consequence of the hon. Lady's Division is to prevent those from individuals going to court, is she prepared to accept responsibility for that?

Lorely Burt: I have already told the Minister that we are defending a principle.

Lembit Öpik: Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government are trying to pass responsibility for judgments about justice to the Liberal Democrats? The mistake the Minister makes is to assume that the police are responsible for forming legislation, when actually politicians must be responsible for ensuring that justice prevails. That is why Lord Carlile must be taken seriously on this matter. I am sure that that is exactly what my hon. Friend was about to say.

Lorely Burt: I am grateful to my hon. Friend, who took the words right out of my mouth. His comments summed up what I wanted to say.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 50, Noes 390.

Division No. 112 [4.01 pm


AYES

Alexander, Danny
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Brake, Tom
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, Malcolm
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Clegg, Mr. Nick
Davey, Mr. Edward
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Foster, Mr. Don
Gidley, Sandra
Goldsworthy, Julia
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Holmes, Paul
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, David
Huhne, Chris
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Kramer, Susan
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair
Moore, Mr. Michael
Mulholland, Greg
Öpik, Lembit
Pugh, Dr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rowen, Paul
Russell, Bob
Smith, Sir Robert
Stunell, Andrew
Swinson, Jo
Taylor, Matthew
Webb, Steve
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil

Tellers for the Ayes:

Mr. Roger Williams and
Lorely Burt


NOES

Abbott, Ms Diane
Afriyie, Adam
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Allen, Mr. Graham
Amess, Mr. David
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Austin, John
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baldry, Tony
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barker, Gregory
Barlow, Ms Celia
Baron, Mr. John
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benton, Mr. Joe
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Betts, Mr. Clive
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Brokenshire, James
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Browning, Angela
Bryant, Chris
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Philip
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, Mr. Jeffrey M.
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Duncan, Mr. Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Etherington, Bill
Evennett, Mr. David
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Forth, rh Mr. Eric
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Francois, Mr. Mark
Gale, Mr. Roger
Gardiner, Barry
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hands, Mr. Greg
Hanson, Mr. David
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Hayes, Mr. John
Healey, John
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hendry, Charles
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Herbert, Nick
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. David
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Ann
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Lammy, Mr. David
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Loughton, Tim
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Luff, Peter
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Mackinlay, Andrew
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Mercer, Patrick
Merron, Gillian
Miliband, rh Mr. David
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Mundell, David
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
O'Hara, Mr. Edward
Olner, Mr. Bill
Ottaway, Richard
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Pritchard, Mark
Prosser, Gwyn
Purnell, James
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Scott, Mr. Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Simpson, David
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spicer, Sir Michael
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tami, Mark
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Thornberry, Emily
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Ussher, Kitty
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Walker, Mr. Charles
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Ian Cawsey and
Mr. Frank Roy


Question accordingly negatived.

 
30 Nov 2005 : Column 324
 

Order for Third Reading read.

4.14 pm

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