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Mr. Caborn: I echo some of the arguments made by the hon. Member for Bath (Mr. Foster). I agree that the approach taken in new clause 2 is schizophrenic. People who criticised the Chancellor for not supporting the move from 10th to fourth position in the medals table in yesterday's pre-Budget report then argue about investment into grass-roots sport as well. The whole Olympic bid process has been one of properly evaluating the risks and costs so that we can learn lessons from previous mistakes. Simply plucking out of the air the idea that we are going to move from 10th to fourth, and then saying, "Please fund it, Chancellor", is not the best way of trying to persuade people that we are serious. UK Sport, under the very good leadership of Sue Campbell, together with Peter Keene, who is probably one of the best respected people in sport, and Liz Nicholl, is systematically working through what it will take to move us progressively up the medals table.

I entirely accept that one of the great successes of 2012 will be our young people picking up those medals on the podiums. However, we have to balance the investment in 26 sports against the 130 sports for which I have ministerial responsibility. My hon. Friend the Member for Vauxhall (Kate Hoey) mentioned the balance between grass-roots and elite sport. We will get that balance right. There is more investment going into sport than there has been for very many years. The investment that is being made in sporting and physical activity through "Building Schools for the Future" clearly shows that we take it very seriously, from the grass roots to the podium.

Mr. Andy Reed: The case that has been put forward by UK Sport is fairly robust and well argued, so I hope that my right hon. Friend will ensure that the support that he gets from the House this evening reaches the Treasury. Does he agree that grandstanding and attacking the Government is not the best way of negotiating the question of funding and is unhelpful to sport in general? Perhaps the chair of the BOA will learn that working in partnership with people is a much better way forward.

Mr. Caborn: There has not been a Chancellor in the recent past who has been more supportive of sport. The Central Council of Physical Recreation has been asking for mandatory rate relief for clubs for 30 years—now we
6 Dec 2005 : Column 790
have got it. The talented athlete scholarship scheme, which is investing in grass-roots sport, came from the Chancellor. This Government's investment in sport—through the Chancellor, with support from the Prime Minister—has been second to none. UK Sport is putting a case together, and if it is well argued I believe that there could be a positive response. Trying to bounce the Treasury is not the best way forward.

Opposition Members have presented the proposal in the new clause to us before in various forms. It would make a special case for the Olympic lottery by providing for a form of tax rebate. There are two reasons why that cannot happen. First, as with all taxes, the Chancellor keeps lottery duty under review and gives due consideration to Budget representations made in the course of the Finance Bill process. As such, any changes in lottery duty should be considered in the context of a future Finance Bill, not this Bill.

Secondly, the Government intend that the same principles that apply to the existing national lottery should apply to any Olympics-themed games. Camelot says that the lottery game has been hugely successful. I put on the record my thanks to all the people who are buying Olympics lottery tickets. That clearly demonstrates the support behind the Olympic bid. People have put their money where their mouths were, and the first £4 million has already been made.

The principle of taxation in the national lottery was accepted by Parliament when the lottery was introduced—[Interruption.] I know that it was introduced by the Opposition. I do not intend to make political points about that because the lottery is one of our national institutions and it has all-party support. Nevertheless, we have made it clear that it will be taxed in the normal way. The £500 million that is collected by the Exchequer goes towards essential services such as schools, hospitals and the like, and it would be wrong to remove it.

I hope that the hon. Member for Faversham and Mid-Kent (Hugh Robertson) will reflect on the funding of elite as against grass-roots sport. I hope that he accepts that the right way to approach the Treasury is the way in which UK Sport is doing it, with a systematic analysis of what needs to be done in investing in elite sport to ensure that we move up the medals table. It is a little naive to say at this early stage that we will move from 10th to fourth without putting the funding mechanism in place. That is not the right way to go about it. I hope that, on reflection, the hon. Gentleman will withdraw the new clause.

Hugh Robertson: I listened with interest to what the Minister said. The good news is that Members on both sides of the House agree on the importance of both securing the necessary funding for our elite athletes and increasing grass-roots participation. Where we differ is on the method of achieving that.

6.30 pm

I entirely accept that the mechanism that we propose is a blunt tool. What should be set against that is that we all make our contribution to lobbying of the Treasury in our own ways. In view of that, and not least because I want the point to be raised, I wish to press the new clause to a vote.
6 Dec 2005 : Column 791

Question put, That the clause be read a Second time:—

The House divided: Ayes 143, Noes 307.

Division No. 116
[6.28 pm


Afriyie, Adam
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baron, Mr. John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Bercow, John
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Butterfill, Sir John
Cameron, Mr. David
Campbell, Mr. Gregory
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Donaldson, Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Forth, rh Mr. Eric
Francois, Mr. Mark
Gale, Mr. Roger
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Harper, Mr. Mark
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Herbert, Nick
Hermon, Lady
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Horam, Mr. John
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Loughton, Tim
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Main, Anne
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Ruffley, Mr. David
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Ayes:

Michael Fabricant and
Mr. Peter Atkinson


Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, Danny
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baker, Norman
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Benn, rh Hilary
Benton, Mr. Joe
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brake, Tom
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brennan, Kevin
Brooke, Annette
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Burt, Lorely
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clegg, Mr. Nick
Clelland, Mr. David
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Farron, Tim
Fisher, Mark
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Gapes, Mike
George, Andrew
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gidley, Sandra
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Helen
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hanson, Mr. David
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Holmes, Paul
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horwood, Martin
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Huhne, Chris
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunter, Mark
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kramer, Susan
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Laws, Mr. David
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Love, Mr. Andrew
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Malik, Mr. Shahid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonnell, Dr. Alasdair
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKenna, Rosemary
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Merron, Gillian
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, Edward
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Sandra
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Price, Adam
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, Mr. Alan
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rowen, Paul
Roy, Mr. Frank
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salmond, Mr. Alex
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swinson, Jo
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Taylor, Matthew
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Thurso, John
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Mr. Neil
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, Keith
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Webb, Steve
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wyatt, Derek

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Alan Campbell and
Tony Cunningham

Question accordingly negatived.

6 Dec 2005 : Column 794

Clause 4

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