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Nia Griffith (Llanelli) (Lab): It gives me great pleasure to speak on this Bill, as I know that it would have gladdened the heart of one of my predecessors: that great Welsh statesman, the right hon. James Griffiths, who, in the 1940s—way ahead of his parliamentary colleagues—was keen on recognising Wales as a separate political unit and on establishing a Wales Office. Eventually, he influenced opinion and was instrumental in devising Labour's Welsh policy to that effect during the 1959 election. He pledged a future Government to the inclusion of a Secretary of State for Wales in the Cabinet, and to specifying the devolution of administration.
When that future Government was eventually elected in 1964, Jim Griffiths became the first Secretary of State for Wales and set up the Wales Office in Cardiff and London. In the 1970s—again, he was ahead of his time—he favoured a democratically elected national assembly, but wanted Wales to remain an integral part of the UK and to be represented at the highest level in Cabinet by its own Secretary of State. Jim would have been proud to see this Bill, which reflects the growing confidence that people in Wales have in the Assembly Government.
I look forward to the introduction of the Order-in-Council mechanism, which will enable legislative initiatives by the Assembly Government, within their spheres of competence, to be fast-tracked through our complicated Westminster procedures. The Bill enshrines in law the opportunity for a referendum on further devolution of powers, once there is a two-thirds majority in the Assembly and the approval of this place and the other place. That prepares the way for elected representatives here and in the Assembly to proceed with a referendum on further powers for the Assembly, if they feel that that reflects the mood of the people of Wales.
It saddens me that some regional AMs have misused their position, and it is precisely because of that misuse that we need to bring in this legislation, which will prohibit candidates from standing both on the regional list and as constituency candidates. Regional AMs have a golden opportunity, without constituency responsibility, to take a much broader perspective—a regional or all-Wales view. Instead, some regional AMs use their time and resources to concentrate on one constituency to the detriment of the rest of their region. For example, one regional AM in a press release today describes herself as a Llanelli-based AM, and is bandying about comparative expenditure figures for Prince Philip hospital, in Llanelli, and for West Wales general hospital, in Carmarthen. She makes no mention of Withybush hospital, in Haverfordwest, or Bronglais hospital, in Aberystwyth, which are also in her region.
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Any regional AM worth her salt would not quote meaningless past figures out of context, but would look to the future impact of the impending review of NHS services on the whole of her region. It is not surprising that people will interpret that as blatant electioneering.
Time after time, my constituents are amazed that the candidate who was defeated in the constituency election can be allowed to set herself up in this way. However, I find it incredible that the hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones) says that parties do not have enough quality candidates to field different candidates for constituency and list. What a sad state to be in.
As for arguments that this reform is partisan, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State pointed out that it could have an equally negative effect on Labour Assembly Members. My friend and colleague, Catherine Thomas, Assembly Member for my constituency of Llanelli, has a majority of 21 votes. Under this reform, she will not have the option of standing for both the constituency and the list, unlike her predecessor, who on losing in the 2003 election, got in on the list. Catherine Thomas, like candidates from all parties, has had to make the choice for 2007.
The hon. Member for Caernarfon (Hywel Williams) is right that even under this legislation regional Members could still choose to focus on one constituency, but they would not have actually lost an election, with the subsequent loss of credibility with the electorate, who often feel very angry about such situations. The Bill will not stop an existing list Member from standing for a constituency, and therefore it is absurd to refer to the change as partisan.
The Bill recognises the way in which the Assembly is increasingly winning the confidence of the Welsh people and I know that if he were alive today, Jim Griffiths would join me in welcoming the enhanced powers and the more effective systems that will lead to the better delivery of services for the people of Wales.
9.26 pm
Mrs. Siân C. James (Swansea, East) (Lab): I, too, wish to add my congratulations to the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan), and to express my sympathy for the families of Lord Merlyn-Rees and Lord Stratford. I did not have the honour of serving with them in this place, but I have met both of them. On the last occasion on which I spoke to Lord Merlyn-Rees he was very elderly, but very erudite and knowledgeable about the ways of the other place. I learned much from him.
I welcome the Bill and fully endorse its three main aims of enhancing the legislative powers of the Assembly, ending the confusing corporate status of the Assembly and addressing the issue of dual candidacy. We have heard much about the latter today, but I want to address a positive aspect of the Bill.
I am a committed devolutionist. My first vote as a young mother was in the 1979 referendum. I was so excited about that vote and so disappointed that we did not achieve devolution for Wales. But we stuck with it and, eventually, the Labour party delivered it. We are the real party of devolution. We can make this a workable Bill and we must take this next logical step on the journey. We are halfway there and we must complete
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it in the fullness of time. I have no concern about that. We must take things slowly and at a pace people understand.
The provision for a referendum is important, as is the way in which it is triggered. We must take the doubts and concerns of constituents into consideration. Several hon. Members have claimed today that it is not an issue in their constituencies, but it is in mine. People are confused about what is happening, both at Westminster and in the Assembly. I spend much time explaining my role and that of Val Lloyd, the Assembly Member for Swansea, but then we reach the inevitable question—"Well, who are the other lot?" Then I become a walking, talking advertisement for the regional list Members, because I have to explain who they are and the region they represent. That is where things go a little fuzzy and confusing. When one tries to explain the regionality of it and the roles and responsibilities of regional list Members, people are confused.
David T.C. Davies: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Mrs. James: I shall let you interrupt at your will.
David T.C. Davies: The hon. Lady is very kind and she knows that I have a great deal of affection for her from our previous campaigns—[Hon. Members: "Oh!"] She mentions the confusion that the voting system causes, and I accept that, but the issue is whether list Members should be able to stand as constituency Members. Does she really claim that the intricacies of the d'Hondt system are a big issue in Swansea?
Mrs. James: They are not a huge issue; the big issues are, as we have said, public services and standards, but when we start to debate things in greater depth confusion occurs. I am dreadfully sorry if you have not taken the time—
Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order. The hon. Lady must sit down when I am on my feet, otherwise she will be committing another offence. She should not use the second person when referring to another hon. Member.
Mrs. James: I apologise, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
When I am out and about, I deal with questions such as those I outlined and I hope that all Members do so. We need to convince people that the measure is workable and that it is important for them. Questions are always asked about regionality and I spend much time on the doorstep and at surgeries trying to explain it.
People also want to know about accountability and responsibility, but as my right hon. Friend the Member for Torfaen (Mr. Murphy) said, we need clarity about regionality. Sometimes, I feel that I must have been in a different country from other Members and that I have been dealing with completely different people. People who ask me questions are tired of hearing negativity on the doorstep; they are tired of people saying this, that
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and the other. They want us to work in a unified way to deliver things for Wales. They want us to work in partnership, so we need to take logical, forward steps, not backward steps.
What we do in this place affects many people. We have heard much today about what the Electoral Reform Society is attempting to do, but I can assure the House that it has carried out no specific research into the confusion between regional list Members and constituency Members. Perhaps the society should ask specific questions. Perhaps it should go to constituencies such as Swansea, East and ask people in my constituency.
I am tired of going to events and falling over regional Members. In Swansea, there are many opportunities to mix and mingle and I constantly fall over regional Assembly Members who introduce themselves as "the Member for this area".
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