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John Robertson (Glasgow, North-West) (Lab):
We have been having an interesting debate. We have a pro-nuclear element on the Conservative Benches and an anti-nuclear element on the Labour Benches, so today I
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feel somewhat embarrassed to be standing on the Government side of the House, given that I am chair of the all-party group on nuclear energy. It will not take a genius to work out whether I am in favour of nuclear energy.
In this short contribution, I should like to take account of what has been said today and advance an argument about why we are debating this issue and why we should not discount one form of energy in favour of another. I was particularly disappointed by the Secretary of State's contribution—the Minister may wish to respond, either now or in his winding-up speech—as it appears that we have already conceded that we will import gas to meet our future energy needs. That is a great mistake. The country needs to look at its energy needs and try to provide its own energy. If that means that we cut gas imports, so be it. We do not need to put all our eggs in one basket and go down the nuclear route. We do not necessarily need new build, but we should replace our existing power stations. The efficiency of the new power stations will increase the electricity available from nuclear.
Malcolm Wicks: My hon. Friend has misunderstood the position. In the consultation document we say that unless things change there will be a heavy reliance on gas imports, and we ask what the implications are. That is not necessarily what will actually happen.
John Robertson: I thank the Minister for that correction. I am pleased that that is the case, but it is not what I thought I heard earlier.
I have visited Finland and Canada in the past few years, and have seen what is being done with waste in Finland. I accept concerns among hon. Members and, indeed, the general public about waste. Who knows? Perhaps the waste of today is the energy of tomorrow. We need to put that waste in a secure place so that it is safe but can be retrieved if we need it for future energy needs in the years and perhaps centuries to come. We should therefore not adopt a short-sighted approach.
We need the right mix. Clean coal technology is an excellent way forward. My hon. Friend the Member for Barnsley, West and Penistone (Mr. Clapham) said that it is here today, and I hope that that is the case, as we could make a great deal of money in China and we could sell the technology to other countries. We must pursue that approach. I was pleased to hear earlier this week that China and Britain are working together to try to promote clean coal technology in future, and I hope that that is successful. Unlike some hon. Members who spoke about renewables, I believe that we should put money into them, as we do not know what we will need in future. Usage has increased. How many households nowadays have more than one television? We used to crowd round the television and eat our tea, but today the kids go to their room, which is heated by its own fire, to play with their PlayStation and watch television. I do not know how we stop them doing so. Hon. Members have talked about increasing household energy efficiency. That has been tried in many countries, but it has never provided enough savings to spread the benefits across the whole nation.
Gas reserves in the North sea are going down, but they are still significant, and businesses should use them to provide heating or to supply gas-related products.
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However, perhaps we should think about cutting gas usage rather than increasing it. As for costs, which were mentioned my hon. Friend the Member for Lewisham, Deptford (Joan Ruddock), I accept that electricity is expensive, which is why people use gas. Oil, too, was popular when it was cheap. If gas prices keep increasing gas will become expensive. It is a finite substance and it will not be available for ever. There may be a run on gas in 10 or 20 years' time, but supplies will not last for ever. The House and hon. Members should think not just about today's generation but about tomorrow's. It is important that we think a few years down the line.
I know that other Members wish to speak, but I want to mention a briefing that I received from the Institution of Electrical Engineers, supported by the Energy Institute, the Institution of Chemical Engineers, the Institution of Civil Engineers and the Institution of Mechanical Engineers. On the disposal of nuclear waste, the briefing stated:
"New nuclear build to maintain existing capacity would add only in the order of 10 per cent. to existing waste."
Some newspaper reports have said that that is not true, but it is. To discount the reprocessing of nuclear waste is to stretch the truth a bit far.
The report from the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management is due soon. I hope it will propose sound and reasoned ways of disposing of our waste. Other countries have gone down that road. The report from the Canadian body chaired by Elizabeth Dowdswell, who is well known in waste management circles, recommended the same solution as has been adopted in Finland—deep burial. Once the Americans have dealt with the litigation that has arisen, they plan to use a similar method in the Yucca mountains.
That is not necessarily the right way for us to proceed. We must remember that the waste is here now. It is not the new waste produced in future that will be the biggest problem. As I said, we can cater for that. Irradiated waste is already produced by our hospitals. Do we not want people to have X-rays or scans as part of their medical treatment? We need a place to store such waste, as well as nuclear waste. I hope CORWM will identify options for storage.
I have crammed a lot into a short space of time. The UK needs a balanced energy policy. No doubt the Minister shares that belief. We should exclude nothing. I do not want to be part of a party that is blinkered about any kind of energy policy. I will listen to everyone's views. I particularly mention the Liberals and the Scottish National party, who have already declared that they do not want nuclear under any circumstances. That is backward-looking and would not encourage me to look towards such a party for government.
5.32 pm
Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I am surprised at the last comments from the hon. Member for Glasgow, North-West (John Robertson). I remind him that his party is in government with the Liberals in Scotland.
The House will not be surprised to learn that the situation in the North sea is of particular concern to me and my party. I pointed out earlier that the existing gasfields west of Shetland were not being exploited, partly because of the tax regime. I was not encouraged
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by the response from the Secretary of State, which we have heard so often before. We were told that last time the Chancellor changed North sea taxation, he had created a stable tax regime. We are told now that there will be no more changes, but that is two years after he allegedly created a stable tax regime.
Security of energy supply does not mean that we necessarily have hands-on control of every part of our energy supply, but it does mean that we maximise what we have of our own. It makes sense for us to maximise the use of the gas in the North sea. After all, the dispute between Russia and Ukraine can hardly have come as a surprise. The use of energy as an economic weapon is well tried. Some of us are old enough to remember the oil price shocks of the 1970s.
We should be cynical about what is being said about the North sea. Papers released over the Christmas recess show that what was effectively a conspiracy was hatched some 30 years ago to deny the true level of oil and gas in the North sea and prevent Scotland from moving towards independence. At that time, we were told that if Scotland achieved independence, we would lose the entitlement to supplies in much of the central North sea, but the documents show that that was totally untrue, because Scotland would have been entitled to at least 80 per cent. of the oil. The documents also note that under the proposals advanced by the SNP, the life of the oil fields could have been extended to 100 years as opposed to the current situation.
Although the Minister for Energy has said that up to 80 per cent. of the UK's gas supply could come from abroad by 2020, that need not be the case in Scotland, which produces much more gas than we actually use. The Minister has said that the outcome of the energy review has not been decided, but the Prime Minister seems to be going out of his way to suggest that the outcome will be new nuclear power stations, which Scotland neither needs nor wants. At the moment, Scotland has 60 per cent. of Europe's oil reserves, more than 12 per cent. of Europe's gas reserves, nearly 70 per cent. of the UK's coal reserves—8 per cent. of the EU's total coal reserves—a quarter of the EU's potential for wind power, 10 per cent. of the EU's potential for wave power and 25 per cent. of the EU's potential for tidal power. A report commissioned by the Scottish Executive in 2001 found that renewable energy could produce six times Scotland's current electricity capacity. Indeed, offshore wind power alone could meet Scotland's needs two and a half times over, and the Pentland firth has been described as the Saudi Arabia of tidal power.
The Minister will not be surprised that I am going to raise the question of transmission charges with him again. Although we have heard a great deal about decentralised energy supply, which I support, the reality under the present regime is that if we are to invest in renewable power, we must get the transmission charging regime right. Scotland's potential for renewable power is being undermined by the regime imposed by Ofgem, which makes renewable power more expensive to produce in Scotland than, for example, in the south of England, yet there is no demand in the south of England and a great deal of demand in Scotland. To be fair to the Minister, he has announced that he will change the
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regime for the Scottish islands, but he has not done so for the highlands of Scotland. For the umpteenth time, I ask him to reconsider the matter.
We have heard a lot about the possible liberalisation of the gas market within the European Union. At the outset, the Minister said that gas in the UK is not expensive in European terms, but I refer hon. Members to Ofgem's evidence to the Trade and Industry Committee, which probed the issue. In response to my question on the difference in energy prices in the UK and Europe, Ofgem told me that it had carried out a
"'gas probe', which identified that effectively UK customers had paid an additional £3.8 billion in the 2003–04 period, and we equally identified that between 50 and 60 per cent. of that was due to the oil indexation which European gas contracts have".
The difference between the very liberalised market in the UK and the much more regulated market in the European Union results in a real cost to consumers of gas.
I was interested to note that at the Hampton Court summit at the end of the UK's presidency of the EU, the Prime Minister suddenly seemed to convert to the idea of an integrated European market, which the Government had resisted for a long time, including a common energy policy, a pan-European electricity grid and shared reserves of stored gas. I am sure that the European Commissioner is grabbing that with both hands. I understand that proposals will be presented by the end of the year. If that means a liberalisation of the market on the continent and a reduction of prices in the UK, it might be welcome, but we wait to see whether that will be the outcome of any such European policy.
Scotland has great potential as an energy producer. Scotland could be energy independent, but the problem is that it is not politically independent. Political independence would mean real potential for energy to power the Scottish economy as well as the potential to export.
5.40 pm
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