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David T.C. Davies: I assure the hon. Gentleman that I was not lost, but does he agree that people will get lost if we have an Assembly in Wales called a Senedd, which implies a parliament; a parliament in Scotland that is a   parliament, and regional assemblies throughout England that will not be parliaments at all? Surely that is a recipe for getting lost.

Lembit Öpik: People looking for the Senedd are less likely to get lost if they have to go to a building called the Senedd. In the hon. Gentleman's logic, he must be claiming that people are more likely to get lost if they have to go a building called the Senedd to find something called the Assembly.

Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con): The hon. Gentleman is correct. He is almost entirely duplicating the debate that took place in the first sitting in Committee on the previous Government of Wales Bill. As the Assembly grows and gradually acquires more power, is there any reason why it should not apply, under field 13 in schedule 5—part of the convoluted process put in place by the Government—to have control over the name of the Assembly and to amend its name in the future? Does the hon. Gentleman see any reason why that should not fall under field 13 in schedule 5? Perhaps the Minister could say whether that would be possible.

Lembit Öpik: The hon. Lady makes an interesting point. I have not thought through that approach, but if in theory it is possible, perhaps that is one way in which those who resist the amendment today intend to proceed.
 
23 Jan 2006 : Column 1173
 

Why are we being so timid? The point of the Bill is to give Wales what it deserves. Those of us who are committed to devolution at a strategic level and in principle—I include Plaid Cymru in that—think that we should now generate parity with Scotland. Part of that is changing the name of the Welsh Assembly to something more in keeping with what Scotland has. We think "Welsh Senedd" is the right phrase. I understand why the change of name would be resisted by those in the Chamber who are not minded to provide strategic parity with Scotland, but we are not making legislation for the next six years—we are making legislation that will outlive our political careers. We must therefore be a little more strategic than worrying that there will be a brief period of confusion, probably lasting months, and at the most lasting a few years, as people get used to the new name.

Nick Ainger: To help the hon. Gentleman and to respond to the question put by the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham (Mrs. Gillan), she is correct that under schedule 5, field 13, it would be possible under the Order-in-Council procedures and the Assembly measures procedures to change the name of the National Assembly.

Lembit Öpik: That intervention is helpful. However, I shall press the amendment to a Division all the same, for the simple reason that this is an opportunity to establish the intended destination of the various parties with regard to the current legislation and parity with Scotland.

Albert Owen: I was not confused when I started listening to the hon. Gentleman, but I am now. Is he honestly suggesting that just by changing the name, he is changing the aspirations of different parties? The argument that I put forward earlier about simple translation is an important one. When people refer in Welsh to this Parliament, they call it San Steffan, the historic name of St. Stephen's, the chapel where the Chamber first met. That is the simple level of language and translation with which I am dealing. I understand and respect the aspirations of the hon. Gentleman and his party, but if he intends to divide on that basis, surely he is doing so just for the sake of it.

Lembit Öpik: We have demonstrated in this first debate that hon. Members are being concise. There has not been an undue amount of discursive commentary.

4 pm

In conclusion, I shall explain why it is important to divide on the matter. Although it may not be so important to the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Albert Owen), there are many who take seriously the title of the Welsh Assembly. They think it is the wrong name and they aspire to "Welsh Senedd". We should not demean the importance of the terminology that we use for the institution that we are modifying through the Bill. Of course we are not changing the world by changing the name of the Welsh Assembly, but in one significant and demonstrable way we will illustrate that we change our intent as to how strategic we wish that institution to be.
 
23 Jan 2006 : Column 1174
 

As the hon. Member for Chesham and Amersham rightly pointed out, some of us made these points at an early stage in our previous debate nine years ago, when the Welsh Assembly was set up. It is natural for us to be consistent and to pursue the matter again. Our point has now been made and I hope that, having reflected on the matter, some hon. Members will now be persuaded to support the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 38, Noes 398.

Division No. 134 [4.00pm


AYES

Alexander, Danny
Baker, Norman
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Brooke, Annette
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Foster, Mr. Don
Gidley, Sandra
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Howarth, David
Hunter, Mark
Kramer, Susan
Law, Peter
Laws, Mr. David
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Moore, Mr. Michael
Öpik, Lembit
Price, Adam
Pugh, Dr. John
Robertson, Angus
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Stunell, Andrew
Swinson, Jo
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willott, Jenny
Wishart, Pete

Tellers for the Ayes:

Bob Russell and
Lorely Burt


NOES

Afriyie, Adam
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Amess, Mr. David
Ancram, rh Mr. Michael
Anderson, Janet
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baldry, Tony
Balls, Ed
Barker, Gregory
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bell, Sir Stuart
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brennan, Kevin
Brokenshire, James
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Browning, Angela
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Ms Dawn
Butterfill, Sir John
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Conway, Derek
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curry, rh Mr. David
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice and Howden)
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Mr. Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Forth, rh Mr. Eric
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Francois, Mr. Mark
Gardiner, Barry
Garnier, Mr. Edward
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Gilroy, Linda
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Havard, Mr. Dai
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Healey, John
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hendry, Charles
Heppell, Mr. John
Herbert, Nick
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hoey, Kate
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, Mr. John
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Glenda
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. David
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keeble, Ms Sally
Kelly, rh Ruth
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lammy, Mr. David
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Linton, Martin
Loughton, Tim
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Luff, Peter
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Main, Anne
Mann, John
Maples, Mr. John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Mercer, Patrick
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Mr. David
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Milton, Anne
Mitchell, Mr. Austin
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mountford, Kali
Mundell, David
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Owen, Albert
Paice, Mr. James
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pearson, Ian
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Prosser, Gwyn
Rammell, Bill
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Scott, Mr. Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simmonds, Mark
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tami, Mark
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, David
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Tredinnick, David
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Ussher, Kitty
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Vaz, Keith
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watson, Mr. Tom
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wicks, Malcolm
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Jeremy
Wyatt, Derek
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Dave Watts and
Mr. Parmjit Dhanda


Question accordingly negatived.

 
23 Jan 2006 : Column 1177
 

The Chairman: Before we proceed, may I say to the Committee that the occupant of the Chair should be referred to as Chairman or by name? The term "Deputy Chairman" is not applicable in these circumstances. As we have three days to go, I thought it as well to make that clear.

4.15 pm

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