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'(2A) No Assembly Measure may be introduced unless a majority of voters in a referendum vote in favour of Assembly Measure provisions coming into force.'.
The Temporary Chairman (Sir Nicholas Winterton): With this it will be convenient to discuss the following: New clause 6—Referendum about commencement of Assembly Measure provisions—
'(1) Her Majesty may by Order in Council cause a referendum to be held throughout Wales about whether the Assembly Measure provisions should come into force.
(2) If the majority of voters in a referendum held by virtue of subsection (1) vote in favour of the Assembly Measure provisions coming into force, the Assembly Measure provisions are to come into force in accordance with section 92.
(3) But if they do not, that does not prevent the making of a subsequent Order in Council under subsection (1).
(4) No recommendation is to be made to Her Majesty in Council to make an Order in Council under subsection (1) unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing the Order in Council has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament and the Assembly.
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(5) But subsection (4) is not satisfied unless the resolution of the Assembly is passed on a vote in which the number of Assembly members voting in favour of it is not less than two-thirds of the total number of Assembly seats.
(6) A draft of a statutory instrument containing an Order in Council under subsection (1) may not be laid before either House of Parliament, or the Assembly, until the Secretary of State has undertaken such consultation as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
(7) For further provision about referendums held by virtue of subsection (1) see Schedule 6.
(8) In this Act, "the Assembly Measure provisions" means sections 92 to 101.'.
New clause 19—Referendum about commencement of Assembly Measure provisions (No. 2)—
'(1) Her Majesty may by Order in Council cause a referendum to be held throughout Wales about whether the Assembly Measure provisions should come into force.
(2) If the majority of voters in a referendum held by virtue of subsection (1) vote in favour of the Assembly Measure provisions coming into force, the Assembly Measure provisions are to come into force in accordance with section 92.
(3) But if they do not, no subsequent Order in Council under subsection (1) may be made until eight years have elapsed after the referendum held by virtue of the first such Order in Council.
(4) If the majority of voters in a second referendum held by virtue of subsection (1) do not vote in favour of the Assembly Measure provisions coming into force, no further Order in Council under subsection (1) may be made.
(5) No recommendation is to be made to Her Majesty in Council to make an Order in Council under subsection (1) unless a draft of the statutory instrument containing the Order in Council has been laid before, and approved by a resolution of, each House of Parliament and the Assembly.
(6) But subsection (5) is not satisfied unless the resolution of the Assembly is passed on a vote in which the number of Assembly members voting in favour of it is not less than two-thirds of the total number of Assembly seats.
(7) A draft of a statutory instrument containing an Order in Council under subsection (1) may not be laid before either House of Parliament, or the Assembly, until the Secretary of State has undertaken such consultation as the Secretary of State considers appropriate.
(8) For further provision about referendums held by virtue of subsection (1) see Schedule 6.
(9) In this Act, "the Assembly Measure provisions" means sections 92 to 101.'.
Mrs. Gillan: I hope that in the course of our consideration of this group of amendments we will not hear about Ministers or Government Members engaging in debate by press release. You might not know, Sir Nicholas, that the Government issued a press release and the article that resulted from it was headed, "Hain accuses Tories of a bid to 'castrate' Assembly". I have never been accused of trying to castrate anything, let alone an Assembly. I know that the Government are hidebound—they have got themselves into a Procrustean bed that they cannot get out of—but they will have to get used to the idea that the Opposition are trying hard to improve the position of the people of Wales. Through this group of amendments, we are trying to ensure that the people of Wales have a vote and a say in the matters that are before the Committee.
Clause 92 is the foundation stone of the new legislative architecture being constructed by the Government and it was debated in some detail in relation to the last group of amendments. It is the clause
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that confers on the Assembly the power to make a type of legislation in relation to Wales known as an Assembly Measure. In the previous debate, the Minister said that the clause provided "enhanced legislative powers". That means that the status quo will not remain and that the Assembly will have enhanced capabilities, over and above those that were originally envisaged. According to the explanatory notes,
"they may modify the effect of legislation made or enacted before or after this Bill is enacted, or make entirely new provision."
Under the clause, even if the process of enacting an Assembly Measure is invalid or irregular, that will not stop the Measure becoming law. That is set out in subsection (3).
Our amendments are designed to give the people of Wales a voice before that new, complex and—dare I suggest—cunning legislative device comes into force. Let me make it clear that we are not seeking a referendum because we believe that it would fail, or that it would succeed. We are keen to ensure that the Assembly develops in the way that the people of Wales want it to develop. Their wants and needs should be paramount.
Mr. Hollobone: That is a crucial point. The National Assembly was set up after a referendum—albeit one whose result was extremely close—and any substantive changes to the way in which the Assembly operates should also be put to the people of Wales.
Mrs. Gillan: My hon. Friend makes an excellent point. There is no doubt that if the people of Wales think that they are getting one thing when they are, in fact, getting another, it would be incorrect not to consult them or give them the opportunity to have a say on that specific matter. [Interruption.] I am being told by the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Kevin Brennan) that they had a general election. There is no doubt that these matters were raised during the general election, but they were not raised in the detail that we now have before us in the Bill. It is only right that we have the opportunity to scrutinise the details, and if the Opposition genuinely conclude that the status quo has not been maintained and the caravan has moved on, it is only right that the people of Wales be taken along with it.
Mr. Gummer: Does my hon. Friend agree that that is especially true for those of us who are opposed to referendums in principle? If one has had a referendum on a particular constitutional base, one is then placed in great difficulty if the same mechanism is not used to ask when one wants to make a change. The Government are pretending not to be making a change in order to avoid that mechanism. Even those of us who hate referendums have to accept that the process is a continuation of one that, unfortunately, the Government forced through previously.
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