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Chris Bryant: My hon. Friend makes the point that there is no extension to new areas, but schedule 5 is materially affected by schedule 7, which limits each of the different fields in schedule 5. He might note that under culture, which is in field three, there would be an exception, whereby the Assembly would not have powers, for broadcasting. There would also be an exception for telecommunications. He might know,
23 Jan 2006 : Column 1256
however, that cable television does not fall into either of those two categories. Will he make sure that that is not also an exception?

The Chairman: Order. I hope that the Minister will not respond to that intervention at this juncture, as we are debating energy, police and the probation and Prison Service.

Nick Ainger: The best way to deal with that intervention, Sir Alan, is to write to my hon. Friend, because the matter is complex and relates to telegraphy, wireless and goodness knows what. If he is patient, I will respond to that point and place a copy of my letter in the Library.

As I was explaining, schedule 5 includes only those matters in which Assembly Ministers will have Executive functions. By accepting the amendment I would go against the whole premise of how schedule 5 is set out. Hon. Members will accept that only giving powers to legislate in areas where Ministers would have Executive powers is common sense. It would be nonsense to give them powers to legislate in areas where they do not have any Executive powers.

Under clause 58, further Executive functions may be transferred to Welsh Ministers. If at some point in future the Welsh Assembly Government assume Executive functions in a new field, it will be possible for schedule 5 to be amended to add that. The Bill is not intended to alter the boundaries of the current devolution settlement. It changes the structures and mechanisms, but the appropriate means of transferring new responsibilities in new fields from UK Ministers to the Welsh Assembly Government is either an Act of Parliament or an Order in Council. Under clause 58, that could include a transfer of functions order. In those circumstances, schedule 5 could be updated to enable legislative competence in respect of that field to be conferred on the Assembly. However, it should be for Parliament to agree at the time whether those responsibilities are such that it would be appropriate to enable the Assembly to acquire legislative competence in that field, too.

Mr. Roger Williams: On a number of occasions the Minister has prayed in aid his party's manifesto, which stated that a Labour Government would give the Assembly enhanced legislative powers. It seems to me that a good enhancement would involve the police and energy.

Nick Ainger: I am afraid that the hon. Gentleman does not understand my point about what constitutes broadening and what constitutes deepening. I believe that enhancing means deepening, not widening. Let me repeat that we do not see the Bill as a vehicle for giving the Assembly further, wider powers, other than those listed in schedule 5.

Members may argue that adding the new fields would not affect the current settlement because an Order in Council would still be needed to confer the competence. It is, however, important for schedule 5 to give an accurate picture of the fields in relation to which the Assembly could acquire legislative competence at any one time. The schedule would give a misleading impression if it appeared to suggest that the UK Government might agree to grant
23 Jan 2006 : Column 1257
the Assembly legislative competence over areas that remain predominantly the responsibility of UK Ministers. Given that explanation of how the process works, I hope that the amendment will be withdrawn.

Adam Price: The Minister let the cat out of the bag by saying that he would give the technical response. It was almost a theological response, and I did not quite follow it. The Minister seemed to be saying that Parliament might have an opportunity to consider adding new fields in the future, but that that was not possible today. I did not understand why it would not be possible today, if the Committee were so minded.

A number of us have said that on issues such as nuclear power—that is just one example—Wales should decide. That is the central principle of democratic devolution. When there is a range of views across the nations in these islands, surely the national representative institution of the Welsh people should decide on Welsh energy policy. The same principle applies across the nations. Scotland currently has more powers than we do. Here is an opportunity for us to have parity of power.

Nick Ainger: I understand the hon. Gentleman's argument, but this is a devolution issue. Surely the Assembly itself should ask for the powers that he suggests it should have. It has not done so, and in effect the hon. Gentleman is suggesting the imposition on the Assembly of something that it has not requested.

Adam Price: Can the Minister give me an example of an occasion on which, in plenary session, the Assembly has voted against—

Kevin Brennan : The hon. Gentleman cannot get away with that.

Adam Price: I cannot prove a negative either, but I should be interested to see the evidence. I suspect that there is consensus across the political parties representing the Assembly against the imposition of a nuclear power station on Wales, but unfortunately, unless the amendment is passed, those representatives will not be able to ask for the power that exists in Northern Ireland and Scotland, which would allow them to decide on that crucial issue. We therefore wish to press the amendment to a vote.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 45, Noes 391.

Division No. 137
[8.53 pm


Alexander, Danny
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Burt, Lorely
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Foster, Mr. Don
Goldsworthy, Julia
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Holmes, Paul
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, David
Hunter, Mark
Kramer, Susan
Lamb, Norman
Law, Peter
Leech, Mr. John
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Moore, Mr. Michael
Öpik, Lembit
Price, Adam
Pugh, Dr. John
Robertson, Angus
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Stunell, Andrew
Swinson, Jo
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wishart, Pete

Tellers for the Ayes:

Hywel Williams and
Mark Williams


Abbott, Ms Diane
Afriyie, Adam
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Amess, Mr. David
Anderson, Janet
Atkins, Charlotte
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Baldry, Tony
Balls, Ed
Barker, Gregory
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brennan, Kevin
Brokenshire, James
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Browning, Angela
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Butler, Ms Dawn
Butterfill, Sir John
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curry, rh Mr. David
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Mr. Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Eagle, Angela
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farrelly, Paul
Field, Mr. Mark
Fisher, Mark
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Follett, Barbara
Forth, rh Mr. Eric
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Fox, Dr. Liam
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Francois, Mr. Mark
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goodman, Helen
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harper, Mr. Mark
Havard, Mr. Dai
Hayes, Mr. John
Healey, John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hendry, Charles
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Herbert, Nick
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horam, Mr. John
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Glenda
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkin, Mr. Bernard
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Mr. David
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lammy, Mr. David
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Law, Peter
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Linton, Martin
Loughton, Tim
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Main, Anne
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McCrea, Dr. William
McDonagh, Siobhain
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, rh Mr. David
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Milton, Anne
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Mundell, David
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Olner, Mr. Bill
Paice, Mr. James
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Rammell, Bill
Randall, Mr. John
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Scott, Mr. Lee
Seabeck, Alison
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Sheridan, Jim
Simmonds, Mark
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Spelman, Mrs. Caroline
Spicer, Sir Michael
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swire, Mr. Hugo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Ussher, Kitty
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Vaz, Keith
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wicks, Malcolm
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, Mr. Michael
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Jeremy

Tellers for the Noes:

Mr. Vernon Coaker and
Gillian Merron

Question accordingly negatived.

23 Jan 2006 : Column 1260

Schedule 5 agreed to.

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