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Mr. Hutton: I largely agree with my right hon. Friend. This is not a punitive package of measures; I think that that is clear, and I hope that he is clear about it. The challenge for us on the Government side of the House is to develop proposals that are radical and have that far-reaching effect, but are not characterised by the label "punitive". I do not believe that that would work. I agree with my right hon. Friend that if we are to succeed in moving people from incapacity benefit towards the opportunity of taking up employment, we shall need a dynamic local labour market and a strong national economy—and I am confident that if the Labour Government continue with the way in which they have managed the economy, we shall achieve that goal as well.

Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): The Secretary of State has mentioned rolling out pathways to work throughout the UK by 2008. Many disability groups have expressed concern about whether the scheme covering the whole country will be of the same quality as the undoubtedly successful pilot schemes. Can the right hon. Gentleman assure us that when the scheme is rolled out, it will have all the functions that the current pilots have enjoyed?

Mr. Hutton: The national roll-out of pathways to work will certainly be focused on ensuring quality, and outcomes for people who are disabled. I can give the hon. Gentleman that absolute assurance.
 
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Mrs. Madeleine Moon (Bridgend) (Lab): I welcome the statement, as the pathways to work project in my constituency, organised largely through the Shaw Trust, has been incredibly successful. How will the changes to housing benefit affect young people who have had difficult relationships and family breakdown and have   ended up in voluntary housing settings such as Ty Cornel in the Porthcawl area, and those in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Ogmore (Huw Irranca-Davies), in the Yellow project in Maesteg? They need to get back into education so that they can move forward, but they cannot then access housing benefit, because they are past the statutory breakdown age. Will we allow young people to stay in education and still be able to access housing benefit?

Mr. Hutton: The education maintenance allowance has, I hope, been an important contribution to securing what my hon. Friend is concerned about. The chapter in the Green Paper dealing with the reform of housing benefit makes it clear that the local housing allowance that we propose to replace housing benefit in the private rented sector will be available for new claimants. People who are currently claiming housing benefit will stay under the existing rules.

Peter Law (Blaenau Gwent) (Ind): Coming from south Wales, from a very depressed constituency, as I do, I ask the Secretary of State how he can justify these proposals. How can a Labour Government justify proposals that will put poor people further down in the poverty trap? That is a disgrace, and something that the Labour party will feel very ashamed of.

Mr. Hutton: I can only assume that the hon. Gentleman has not read the Green Paper, because we are not cutting incapacity benefit for existing claimants. We will introduce a more generous employment and support allowance in 2008, and we are providing more help and support for his constituents. I am utterly astonished that he has not had the good grace to recognise that today.

Roger Berry (Kingswood) (Lab): Obviously, we shall all want to look at the details in the Green Paper, but in view of previous debates on incapacity benefits in this House and elsewhere, I warmly welcome my right hon. Friend's very positive statement, particularly the speedy national roll-out of pathways to work, which is about recognising the barriers that disabled people face and taking the actions necessary to remove those barriers. Does my right hon. Friend agree that one of the key essentials is to ensure that those responsible for giving support and advice to benefit claimants have the skills and the resources to do their job properly? Without that, there is a great danger that this magnificent way of dealing with the problem might not be as effective as would otherwise be the case.

Mr. Hutton: My hon. Friend is exactly right and I pay tribute to his work in this area. It is very important that we invest in our disability employment advisers to make sure that they have the skills and expertise and, yes, the resources to do the jobs that we want them to do. As he knows, as part of the changes that we are making to Jobcentre Plus, we are trying to shift more people from
 
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the back office into the front office, in order that they can do the front-of-house work that needs to be done with benefit claimants directly. I hope that that will make a difference and ensure that the quality of advice that people receive is as good as it should be.

Mr. David Heathcoat-Amory (Wells) (Con): This Green Paper has the very general title of "A new deal for welfare", so why does it not tackle the main feature of the Government's welfare policies in the past eight years, which is the vast extension of means-testing? Does the Secretary of State agree that the means-tested society that we have created is not only incredibly bureaucratic, but creates severe disincentives to long-term saving and self-reliance? When is he going to reform that aspect of his policies?

Mr. Hutton: In any welfare system, it is important—the right hon. Gentleman will not want to argue against this—to target specific and additional help on the poorest people in society. I make no apology for the fact that, through tax credits, the pension credit and other initiatives that we have introduced, we have lifted literally millions of our fellow citizens out of poverty altogether. That is a record of solid achievement that all Labour Members are proud of. These reforms are about incapacity benefit, older people and lone parents; that is the focus of the Green Paper, and I am sure that the right hon. Gentleman will benefit from a thoroughly good read of it.

Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): There will perhaps be a collective sigh of relief following the Green Paper's publication today. At long last, we have something to discuss, and I am sure that disabled organisations will engage with the Secretary of State and his Department and debate these proposals. There will also be a sigh of relief at the fact that many of the scare stories running in the press about how punitive the Government were going to be seem not to have been fulfilled; that said, we shall have to look at the detail.

Will the Secretary of State assure me that any new benefit that he puts in place will not contain the structural barriers associated with incapacity benefit, which puts obstacles in the way of disabled people and makes it very difficult for them to get work? Will he also provide support for those who need help, particularly those with mental health problems, who need assistance in accessing all those aspects of society that the rest of us take for granted?

Mr. Hutton: Yes, I can give my hon. Friend that assurance. The reforms that we are making are designed to take out the perverse incentives in the current system, and to provide more help and support. We want to develop these proposals over the next few months in dialogue and consultation with the widest possible cross-section of organisations with an interest in these matters, in order to ensure that we can design out, at the beginning of this process, any change that might have the consequences referred to by my hon. Friend.

Mr. Philip Dunne (Ludlow) (Con): The Secretary of State said earlier that he acknowledges that the longer people are on incapacity benefit, the more support, help and training they often need to get off that benefit and
 
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into work. Has he been able to discuss with representatives of the various training bodies—they are often voluntary groups—the contractual arrangements entered into by his Department, which were described to the Work and Pensions Committee last week as nothing less than a shambles?

Mr. Hutton: Yes, we are certainly talking to the training and employment providers about precisely that issue, which my right hon. Friend the Minister for Employment and Welfare Reform is looking into in particular.

Mr. Ronnie Campbell (Blyth Valley) (Lab): The one thing that worries me is the position of older people—particularly those who have worked all their life in heavy industry—who, when they reach the age of 62 or 63, go on to incapacity benefit. The last time that such a change was introduced, officers of the then Department of Health and Social Security were given targets, which they had to meet. Of course, the first people whom they went for were those who had worked all their life in heavy industry, who sustained many injuries in doing so. Will there be targets this time?

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