| Previous Section | Index | Home Page |
Mr. David Jones (Clwyd, West) (Con): I am concerned about clause 100(1)(c). As my hon. Friend the Member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale (David Mundell) observed, we occupy a conjoined jurisdiction of England and Wales, yet the clause provides that the Secretary of State can effectively put a stop to an Assembly Measure only if it has an adverse impact on the operation of the law as it applies in England. We have a large body of law that may well be affected by an Assembly Measure not only in England, but in Wales. It is extraordinary that the Secretary of State has no power of intervention if an Assembly Measure has an adverse effect on the operation of the law as it applies in Wales also. The explanatory notes are silent on that point, so will the Minister expand on it?
Nick Ainger: The measures set out in subsection (1) replicate schedule 3, paragraph 6 of the Government of Wales Act 1998. There is nothing new in subsection (1). The provisions were discussed in this place and passed in 1998. That provides some context for the measure.
Mr. Llwyd: Is the Minister saying that paragraph (b) about water resources was in the 1998 Act?
Nick Ainger: I am assured that that is the case. Perhaps that will lower the temperature of the debate so that we can address the detail.
Clause 100 contains powers for the Secretary of State, by order, to prevent a proposed Assembly Measure from being submitted for approval by Her Majesty in Council. These powers are rightly constrained. The Secretary of State would be able to block a proposed measure only in certain prescribed circumstances. Moreover, the Secretary of State must have reasonable grounds to believe that those circumstances exist.
Hon. Members asked about the difference between paragraph (a), which refers to adverse effects beyond the Assembly's legislative competence, and paragraph (b), which refers to
An adverse effect on matters beyond the Assembly's legislative competence is an issue that we have already discussed. That could be addressed through the Counsel-General or the Attorney-General. I emphasise to the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy that the clause relates to Assembly Measures and their possible effect, not to a UK Department imposing some measure on Wales. There is a remote possibility that these circumstances may occur and as in the 1998 Act, we need to deal with that possibility.
The clause refers to an adverse effect on matters outside the Assembly's legislative competence. If the process already exists whereby such an issue may be referred to the Supreme Court in the Order in Council process, the provision in the Bill would mean that if, after a Measure had been completed, a problem—possibly purely technical—emerged in relation to whether the Measure would have an impact in an area
24 Jan 2006 : Column 1362
for which the Assembly did not have legislative competence, the Secretary of State could prevent it from going forward, or perhaps suggest to the Assembly that it look again at the Measure and amend it.
Mr. Llwyd: May I take the Minister back to clause 100(1)(b), which deals with water resources? What would happen if the National Assembly wanted to pass a measure to outlaw any further drownings of valleys because it believed that water needed to be conserved and that a certain percentage of water was being wasted through leaking pipes every day of the year? Could the Secretary of State say, "No, we are not having that, because we might need compulsorily to acquire land to drown in the future." I believe that Parliament would prevail in those circumstances and that the voice of the Assembly would be drowned.
Nick Ainger: Let us examine the hypothetical case that the hon. Gentleman has raised, in which the Assembly said that there would be no increase in the amount of water available. As I read clause 100(1)(b), such a proposal would have a serious adverse impact on water resources, water supply or the quality of water in England. The proposal does not specify an increase; it describes the current situation and states that it should not be made any worse. Hon. Members were seeking an example of an Assembly Measure that would have such an impact, but I cannot think of one. However, there might be a measure affecting a major forestry issue, for example, that would have an impact on the water resources that are supplied to England. The provision might apply in that kind of area.
I repeat that this does not involve something being done to Wales. It would involve an Assembly Measure that was being introduced. The hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy referred to the drowning of valleys, but I just cannot see how that would relate to the circumstances to which these requirements refer.
Mr. Gummer: I ask the Minister to look again at his explanation of clause 100(1)(b). It seems clear to me that the provision could be used by a Minister against an Assembly Measure that related to the increase of water resources. If England thought that there was a need for such an increase, any such Measure could have a serious adverse impact on water resources. The provision does not mention present or previous water resources; it simply mentions water resources. The Minister is giving that opportunity; he might want to. I think that we ought to know.
Nick Ainger: We are starting to get into the realms of fantasy now. This provision has been on the statute book since 1998, and there has never been a problem with it. I simply cannot accept some of the arguments that have been put forward. These are perfectly reasonable proposals that were originally set out in schedule 3(6) of the Government of Wales Act 1998.
Mr. David Jones:
I note that the word "effect" is used in clause 100(1)(a) and (c), while the word "impact" is used in paragraph (b). Will the Minister please explain—[Interruption.] Clearly, an Act of Parliament uses words in a particular manner in order to convey a particular meaning; at least, one hopes that it does. Can
24 Jan 2006 : Column 1363
the Minister explain why the word "impact" is used in paragraph (b), and the word "effect" in paragraphs (a) and (c)?
Nick Ainger: No, I cannot. We are trying to scrutinise a very large Bill, and I think that we are now moving into an area in which our proceedings might fall into disrepute. We really need to move on.
Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire) (LD): Will the Minister give way?
Nick Ainger: I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, but I hope that he is going to make a sensible intervention.
Lembit Öpik: I only make sensible interventions. I have been listening very closely to the arguments put forward by the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy and to the Minister's response to them, and I must take issue with what the Minister has just said. As the hon. Member for Clwyd, West (Mr. Jones) has just pointed out, the wording of these provisions is very important, and it is our duty to get this right. If different terminology is used in paragraph (b) from that in paragraphs (a) and (c), one has to assume that there is some logic behind that. I know that this argument is taking a bit of time, but I hope that the Minister is about to receive some clarification on this, because for me at least, his answer will be salient to what we should do if there were a vote on the amendment.
Nick Ainger: This will really enlighten the Committee. The reason that the word "effect" is used is because it relates to the legislative environment. The reason that the word "impact" is used is because it relates to the physical environment. I hope that everyone is happy with that explanation.
As I was saying, the intervention powers are extremely limited, but they are important. It is absolutely right that the Secretary of State should be able to prevent proposed Assembly legislation from having adverse consequences of the kind set out in clause 100(1). It is unlikely that that would be necessary, but it is important that that power should exist.
Amendment No. 175 would give the Secretary of State the power to override proposed Assembly legislation just because he or she thought that it would have a bad effect. That would be completely unacceptable. We must strictly constrain the powers of the Secretary of State, and I would urge hon. Members not to support that amendment.
Amendment No. 176 would provide that an order preventing an Assembly Measure from being submitted for approval by Her Majesty should be subject to the affirmative rather than the negative resolution procedure. I suspect that it has been tabled in this way because the previous amendment, amendment No. 175, is so powerful. The reason that we have proposed to use the negative procedure, which could be implemented by either House of Parliament, is that the Secretary of State must make an order within four weeks. It would not be possible to do that, or to be properly accountable, if we were to use the affirmative order procedure.
24 Jan 2006 : Column 1364
In conclusion, the Conservative amendments and the Plaid Cymru amendments are poles apart, in that they seek to do completely opposite things. Any of them would unbalance devolution in one direction or another. The position that we have outlined in the Bill strikes a perfect balance, and I would therefore ask the hon. Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy not to press his amendment to a vote.
| Next Section | Index | Home Page |