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Mr. Alan Williams: I am impressed that the Secretary of State finds distasteful what we find so distasteful. In that case, why does he not legislate against it?
Mr. Hain: For the reasons that I am about to explain to my right hon. Friend and the House.
The amendments are an attempt to address the perceived risk that repeat referendums could be held on the commencement of Assembly Act provisions. I do not think that an explicit provision is required to stop repeat referendums, whether that is of the type proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis), or that proposed by the Conservative party, because the Bill provides for an environment of consensus. Hon. Members who have spoken do not seem to have recognised that a two-thirds majority of the Assembly would be required. I have been criticised for insisting on a two-thirds majority, and ardent advocates of primary powers say that it will create an obstacle. I make no apology for the proposal because I do not consider it to be an obstacle.
If we are going to go for a referendum, it makes elementary political sense to say that we must be satisfied that the conditions are at least those that existed in 1997, with Welsh Labour, the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru—and probably sections of the Welsh Conservatives—being in favour of a referendum and full primary law-making powers. The two-thirds majority is an essential check on whether there is consensus. In addition, a vote in the House and
24 Jan 2006 : Column 1383
the House of Lords will be required, so Parliament will have to endorse that position. The idea that a series of referendums could be called one year after another—Quebec-style—is not realistic given the need for a two-thirds majority in the Assembly and a vote in the House of Commons and House of Lords. My answer to the fair question asked by my right hon. Friend the Member for Swansea, West is thus that a process of caution is built into the Bill.
A further point, albeit not a decisive one, would be in the background and could figure in public debate. Referendums are costly. It is estimated that a referendum would cost about £7 million, which is another reason why the people of Wales would revolt at the idea of continual referendums. History teaches us the political reality. When the referendum was lost in 1979, it took until 1997 to create the conditions in which it was felt that there was consensus to move again. We do not need legislation on the matter because it would put rigid barriers in the way of the politics. We and the people of Wales want politics to reflect the centre of gravity of Welsh politics, which is where I humbly believe that the Bill is situated.
The problem with amendment No. 189 is that it would throw away the key for the future. In that spirit, I hope that the hon. Lady withdraws it and that my hon. Friend the Member for Aberavon will not push his amendments to a vote. There are sufficient locks to require political consensus to be created, through a two-thirds vote in the Assembly initially, and then with this House and the House of Lords having the final say. I do not think that Parliament would stand for continuous referendums to bully people into voting yes, even if the Assembly repeatedly requested them. There is no support for that in the House and I, as the Secretary of State responsible for introducing the Bill, would have no truck with it.
Mrs. Gillan: We have had an interesting debate, which has gone on longer than I anticipated because of the significant contributions by some hon. Members. To defer to the Father of the House, the right hon. Member for Swansea, West (Mr. Williams) summed up the situation well. The Secretary of State is a man in a hurry. He does not want to wait. In a devastating critique, the right hon. Member for Swansea, West outlined that there is an element of political opportunism. What came through was that the Secretary of State is not showing any duty of care to the people of Wales by allowing the Bill to stand in the form that is before us. What I derived from the Father of the House's contribution is that this is an experiment with the constitutional position of Wales, which is not advisable and will do no good.
The fact that the Secretary of State was invited to place papers in the Library and papers were there none is also fairly significant. The consultation appeared to be only within the party and not with the public. That also goes some way to revealing the mindset behind the Bill.
I shall touch only briefly on the comments by the hon. Member for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik), because his contribution was not one of his best. However, I want to defend him. The Secretary of State was
24 Jan 2006 : Column 1384
unnecessarily cruel in his taunting. It is understandable that his arguments were not as comprehensive as usual in the circumstances.
Lembit Öpik: I thank the hon. Lady for her support. I have had a lot on my mind recently, and I give her my unequivocal backing in her career.
Mrs. Gillan: I am happy to receive it because fortunately I am not running for the leadership of the Liberal Democrats, although I might make a better job of it than some other people.
As Chairman of the Select Committee, the hon. Member for Aberavon (Dr. Francis) has done a sterling job in difficult circumstances. I do not think that his Committee was fully consulted by the Secretary of State. I certainly do not think that it has been taken along in the process. He approaches the problem from a different dimension. Whereas the right hon. Member for Swansea, West may not be a great enthusiast for devolution, the hon. Gentleman is, but even he has problems with the way in which the Bill stands.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Suffolk, Coastal (Mr. Gummer), in the bravura performance that we have come to expect, made the points in his inimitable fashion. It was interesting that the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil and Rhymney (Mr. Havard) was tempted to participate in the debate. He said that we must not run too far ahead of the people. I agree entirely. I was delighted that he participated because we have not been treated to many contributions by the Labour Members who represent Welsh constituencies. It was good to see the hon. Gentleman making a contribution. My hon. Friend the Member for Monmouth (David T.C. Davies) said that the proposals would make Wales a political football, and he was quite right.
I have listened carefully to the Secretary of State. He says that nothing will happen until 2011—it might be some time after that—but he is trying to legislate today. He also said that there might be a period when Westminster was in conflict with Cardiff; I am not entirely sure that Westminster is not in conflict with Cardiff at the moment, but I do not want to intrude on the private agonies of the Labour party. But that is no excuse for bringing forward this legislation. I do not accept his arguments.
I see, rather, a strange consensus. He said that he wanted consensus, and he has it; from Swansea, West, from Suffolk, Coastal, from Aberavon, from, I think, Merthyr Tydfil, and from Chesham and Amersham. Therefore, I have no choice but to put my amendment to the vote in order to place on record our belief that the Bill should not provide the opportunity for repeat referendums and for turning Wales into a political football. By not acceding to any of the amendments that I or the hon. Member for Aberavon have tabled, the Secretary of State has brought this vote on himself.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The Committee divided: Ayes 152, Noes 313.
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AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Barker, Gregory
Baron, Mr. John
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Brokenshire, James
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burt, Alistair
Butterfill, Sir John
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Davies, David T.C. (Monmouth)
Davies, Philip
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Field, Mr. Mark
Forth, rh Mr. Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hermon, Lady
Hogg, rh Mr. Douglas
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Horam, Mr. John
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
McCrea, Dr. William
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Milton, Anne
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mundell, David
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paisley, rh Rev. Ian
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mrs. Iris
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Syms, Mr. Robert
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Wallace, Mr. Ben
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Willetts, Mr. David
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. David Evennett and
Mr. Henry Bellingham
NOES
Abbott, Ms Diane
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barrett, John
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bayley, Hugh
Begg, Miss Anne
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Brown, Mr. Russell
Browne, rh Mr. Des
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, Malcolm
Buck, Ms Karen
Burgon, Colin
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Lorely
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Caton, Mr. Martin
Cawsey, Mr. Ian
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cousins, Jim
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
Davey, Mr. Edward
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Drew, Mr. David
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth
Eagle, Maria
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Ennis, Jeff
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Don
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goggins, Paul
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Havard, Mr. Dai
Healey, John
Heath, Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hopkins, Kelvin
Horwood, Martin
Howarth, David
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Ingram, rh Mr. Adam
Irranca-Davies, Huw
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Kilfoyle, Mr. Peter
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lamb, Norman
Lammy, Mr. David
Laws, Mr. David
Lazarowicz, Mark
Leech, Mr. John
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacDougall, Mr. John
Mackinlay, Andrew
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McNulty, Mr. Tony
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Merron, Gillian
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moran, Margaret
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mulholland, Greg
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Olner, Mr. Bill
Öpik, Lembit
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Prescott, rh Mr. John
Price, Adam
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Bob
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salmond, Mr. Alex
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheridan, Jim
Short, rh Clare
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, Sir Robert
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Stunell, Andrew
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Touhig, Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, Keith
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watts, Mr. Dave
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Williams, Hywel
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, Ms Rosie
Wishart, Pete
Wood, Mike
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Tellers for the Noes:
Tony Cunningham and
Mr. Alan Campbell
Question accordingly negatived.
24 Jan 2006 : Column 1388
Adam Price: I beg to move amendment No. 31, in page 56, line 25, at end insert—
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