---

Mr. Peter Robinson: I get the impression that the Secretary of State is bringing his remarks to a close, but he has not touched on an issue that I was expecting him to deal with. I know that, at one stage, he harboured the ambitious hope of introducing constitutional proposals on changing the way that the Assembly in Northern Ireland operates, by way of amendment to this legislation. Is that off the table or will it occur during the lifetime of this legislative process? If it will, can he assure us that there will be a proper debate on the key issues relating to how Northern Ireland is to be governed?

Mr. Hain: It certainly is not off the table and the Bill may well be a vehicle for addressing those issues, which we recently discussed with the hon. Gentleman's party and with the other parties concerned at Hillsborough castle and Stormont. They remain to be addressed and if we do decide to amend the Bill—as I have signalled that we might—we have provided adequate time for debate. There will be two full days of debate on the Floor of the House and if Government new clauses are tabled, they will be taken here and we will have adequate time to deal with them, as is obviously crucial. We would want to discuss such proposals with all the parties, including the hon. Gentleman's, before moving down that route.

The decommissioning of IRA weapons, which was independently verified and reported on by the Independent International Commission on Decommissioning and by witnesses, has also contributed positively to the new environment. The picture is not perfect but huge progress has been made: the situation in Northern Ireland is transformed from where we were. We need to step up to the
 
13 Mar 2006 : Column 1179
 
challenges and opportunities that the new environment presents. Political leaders in all walks of life need to show vision, courage and commitment to these goals. Restoration of the devolved institutions remains the aim, and Northern Ireland's politicians need to take the next step forward. We need to restore devolved government on a stable and lasting basis, and this legislation will help to prepare the way.

5.14 pm

Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury) (Con): The heart of the Bill is the section dealing with the proposed devolution of policing and criminal justice. The Opposition agree with the Government that it is right that such matters should in due course be devolved to politicians directly accountable to the people of Northern Ireland, but we need to be clear about the basis on which that will happen. Several interventions in the Secretary of State's speech showed that there is concern among Members on both sides of the House about precisely how the Bill's order-making powers might be applied in future.

I think that the Government are right to transfer lead responsibility for national security from the police to the Security Service, but it will not be easy to define the boundary between strategic matters and operational matters. By the time policing is devolved, the House will need to have a clearer view than we are able to take at present about matters of accountability and, in particular, the extent to which the Northern Ireland Policing Board and the police ombudsman are to have jurisdiction over matters that touch on terrorism or national security.

The details of secondary legislation on the devolution of policing must make it clear that, in performing their daily responsibilities, the Chief Constable and the Policing Board will remain independent of Ministers in the Executive. That independence is critical if the police are to continue to make progress in gaining cross-community support throughout Northern Ireland. As both the Secretary of State and I know from visits to cities in Northern Ireland, it is very impressive to hear from local commanders how they are gradually extending what we would regard as normal policing to parts of Northern Ireland that have not had anything remotely like normal policing for the past 30 years or longer.

We need to accept a third point. The devolution of policing and criminal justice is a desirable objective, but it cannot occur until every political party that appoints Ministers to a devolved Executive has accepted the legitimacy of the police and the courts and is prepared to support those institutions. Support for the police, the courts and the criminal justice system is not an optional extra, nor is it some magnanimous concession that should entitle those offering it to a political reward.

I want devolution to be restored in Northern Ireland and I want it to extend in due course to policing and criminal justice, but that cannot happen while the republican movement in particular denies the legitimacy of the courts and the police and is willing to let vicious crime, even murder, go unpunished rather than encourage its supporters to give evidence to the proper authorities.

In case anybody thinks that I am interested only in the misdeeds of republican paramilitaries, I should make it clear that I make no moral distinction between republican
 
13 Mar 2006 : Column 1180
 
paramilitaries and their loyalist counterparts. The Ulster Defence Association and the Ulster Volunteer Force are the bane of the communities whose interests they claim to defend. Loyalist communities need investment, jobs and better education and training, and they need to be rid of drug dealing and the protection rackets. The grip of paramilitary groups is the biggest single deterrent to economic revival and urban regeneration. I welcome the effort being made by some men within loyalism to get the paramilitary gangs to decommission their weapons and put themselves out of business, and I am sure that the Secretary of State and I agree that the sooner that happens the better for everybody concerned, especially people on loyalist estates in Northern Ireland's cities.

Although I do not make a moral distinction, there is a key political distinction between loyalist paramilitaries and the Provisional IRA. The parties linked to the UDA and the UVF have minimal electoral support; they have no chance of holding office in any devolved Government. By contrast, the provisional republican movement, through Sinn Fein, would be entitled to ministerial office including, as things stand, the position of Deputy First Minister and in time, in all probability, some responsibility for policing or criminal justice. We all have to accept that we cannot have Sinn Fein back in government with their Ministers sharing in the administration of justice while the provisional republican movement refuses to recognise the courts or the police. Such a state of affairs would be grotesque.

Before the devolution of policing and justice can occur, as proposed in the Bill, we need to see tangible evidence that republicans have made a practical and an ideological commitment to support the rule of law.

Mark Durkan : The hon. Gentleman made a number of points about the parties related to loyalist paramilitaries and their lack of potential for ministerial office, but has he any comment to make on the fact that the Secretary of State has appointed to the Policing Board for Northern Ireland the chairperson of the Progressive Unionist Party, which is linked to the UVF? Its ceasefire is not recognised, it is a paramilitary organisation that the Secretary of State specified and it has not engaged in any decommissioning, yet under the decision that the Secretary of State announced today it finds itself on the Policing Board. Will he address that issue as well as the issues he has raised about the republican movement?

Mr. Lidington : The hon. Gentleman makes an important point. I had not been aware of it before he gave me news of it in his intervention. It raises a number of legitimate questions that we will wish to pursue in due course.

Mr. Hain: The matter has been raised with the hon. Gentleman rather than with me, but I would have been happy to respond if it had been raised with me. Dawn Purvis, the individual concerned, performed extremely strongly in the interviewing process before the panel, which had an independent member. She came with a very high recommendation. I think she will add to the effectiveness of the Policing Board in performing the job it has done so effectively in recent years.
 
13 Mar 2006 : Column 1181
 

Mr. Lidington: I am grateful to the Secretary of State for his comments. We will have opportunities to pursue the matter across the Floor of the House, perhaps in Northern Ireland questions this Wednesday.

Mr. Peter Robinson : The issue raised in the question asked by the hon. Member for Foyle (Mark Durkan) is not whether a candidate performs well but the suitability of somebody from that background. As the Secretary of State seems to be willing to intervene on this, was the hon. Gentleman seeking an assurance from him that it was clarified that the candidate concerned fully supports the police and criminal justice in Northern Ireland and opposes paramilitary and criminal activity?

Mr. Lidington: Given the background of the lady who has been appointed, I would hope that inquiries of that type had been made.

Mr. Hain: The hon. Gentleman is very generous in giving way. Perhaps I can take of advantage of him to provide that assurance. It is an elementary pre-condition for any applicant for membership of the Policing Board, including Dawn Purvis, that he or she signs up to that. That was made clear throughout. The panel was satisfied that she came with a very strong recommendation from the interviewers.

---