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Mr. Gale: On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I do not want to detain the House, but during the debate on the last group of amendments, I am fairly certain that I understood the Minister to respond to the hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller) by saying that it would be regrettable if a Select Committee were referred for judicial review. That is on the record. However, it is my understanding that Select Committees and the whole House are the subjects and beneficiaries of parliamentary privilege and could not be referred for judicial review. Can you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, either rule on it now or, if necessary, look further into it so that either you orMr. Speaker can make a ruling?
Mr. Deputy Speaker: The hon. Member, who is an experienced Member of the House, knows that, strictly speaking, that is not a point of order for the Chair. It would draw the Chair into a matter that arose during a debate. Equally, he is experienced enough to know that, under the device of making a point of order, he has put his point on the record and we shall no doubt be able to resolve it and gain complete clarification in the course of the debate.
(2) The procedures specified in section 10 and section [Veto by specified number of Members of House of Commons] shall apply to any legislation made by any person on whom the power to legislate has been conferred under this part.
(3) Any person on whom the power to legislate has been conferred under this part shall be subject to the same duties to consult before exercising that power as those to which a minister of the Crown is subject under section 11.
(7) A Minister of the Crown may not make a statutory instrument containing an order under subsection (5)(d) unless a draft has been laid before, and approved by resolution of, each House of Parliament.'.
Mr. Heath: The matter of the implied repeal of the Bill of Rights is of some consequence, and I think that it may well be a matter for the Chair or, indeed,Mr. Speaker, to protect the rights of the House, but that is not what new clause 15 is about. The new clause deals with the capacity conferred by the Bill to delegate the function of legislation. It is, at first sight, a rather extraordinary conceptthe idea that Ministers might, by Order in Council, confer to any other person the function of legislating. Of course, delegated functions already occur through primary legislation in a number of cases, but when we asked Ministersin Committee and elsewhereexactly what they meant by the provision in the Bill, I have to say that the answers were less than convincing and less than adequate. There is no clear idea of why there is a need for Ministers to defer through an Order in Council what is the most important aspect of Parliaments workthe legislative functionto any other person. There is, I accept, an argument for allowing the function of levying fees or changing a fees regime to be delegated to another person, which is why we have framed our new clause in a different way from the amendment that we tabled in Committee, and why it does not deal with that issue.
We would have liked a full debate on this subject yesterday in the context of new clause 19, but as you know, Mr. Deputy Speaker, our procedure yesterday did not entirely allow for that. The new provision was originally in clause 2, but now lies in new clause 19 and the subsequent new clauses. We would have liked at that point to move amendments reducing the capacity to delegate the function of legislating, and to have divided the House on them.
Two things alarm us. First, we have to ask whether it is right to give, through secondary legislation, the legislative function to another personwhomsoever that may bewho is not a legislator; not a Member of this Parliament. The second and most relevant question is that even if one accepts the need to delegate the legislative functionwhich I do notwhy on earth is the legislation that such a person can then create via the delegated power not subject to the same caveats to which the Minister who conferred that delegated function is subject? Why, moreover, is such legislation not subject to the same parliamentary protectionsalbeit inadequate, as we have just been debatingto which it would have been subject, had it been put through the House via secondary legislation?
The case is absolutely unanswerable. I am prepared to listen to arguments from the Minister on the need to delegate a legislative function, although I am still at a loss to know in exactly what circumstances such a power would be used. However, I will not accept, under any circumstances, that such a power should not be subject to the same restrictions, caveats and the so-called veto that we have applied to matters properly before legislators: in other words, Members of this House acting in a legislative capacity in a Select Committee or in a Statutory Instrument Committee.
The suggestion is entirely preposterous. I know that we sometimes seem to defer our legislative functions to all sorts of people, but at least we try to maintain the fig leaf whereby we legislate in this House on the basis of information that we have. Ministers will be allowed to wash their hands completely of legislation that is the product of this provision. They will not be interested in whether it complies with the regulatory principles or falls within the narrow constraints on Ministers ability to delegate through such means, which we have just been discussing.
We must remember that we are talking about amendment to primary legislation. Primary legislation will go through all its parliamentary stages and, a few years later, a Minister will be able to say, Im going to amend this legislation, but Im not going to tell you how. Im going to delegate that function to another person whom the House does not know and whose capacity they do not know, in order that they can make amendments that the House does not know about, and which will never go back to the House for corroboration or scrutiny.
I do not think that that is the way that the House should do its business. It is an error of judgment. I know that the Minister will say, Its nothing to worry about. Were only talking about a few learned bodies and things like that, and they must be allowed to make their own rules, but I do worry about itthat is my job. It is the job of all hon. Members to worry about whether we allow other people to make legislation on our behalf without the appropriate restrictions.
The hon. Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Mr. Miller), the Chairman of the Regulatory Reform Committee, also has amendments in this group. From his body language, it is clear that he shares some of our concerns and that he is itching to speak. Given the abbreviated time available I shall not delay the House, save to say that amendments Nos. 5 and 9 fall, as they apply to something that yesterday was deleted from the Bill by a decision of the House. However, new clause 15 is still relevant as it sets out the principles that should apply in this matter and would restrict the capacity to delegate the legislative function.
I hope that we will get satisfactory answers from the Minister, but I expect that he will not be able to satisfy my concerns as he has not put forward his own amendments to bring the delegated legislative function within the compass of his constraints. It is likely that I shall wish to divide the House, but I hope to get some support from other parties.
Conservative Members who share my concerns may feel put off because the new clause refers to the veto. They were unable to support that proposal earlier, but it has now been disposed of. This is an important issue and we must send the clearest possible message to the
other place that it requires appropriate amendment. For members of the principal Opposition party to sit on their hands in respect of such an important matter would be extremely unhelpful, and I entreat them to show their support in the Lobbies, whatever their reservations about one small aspect of the new clause.
Andrew Miller: Amendment No. 7 would change the default position and ensure that the positive and negative procedures that apply to Ministers would also apply to any grantee of the power to legislate, unless an exception applied as set out in amendment No. 8.
I shall give the House practical examples of how that would work. The North Western and North Wales Sea Fisheries Committee is made up of local authority appointees and others, including lay persons. It has been involved in long and complicated machinations about illegal cockle fishing on the Dee estuary with the Environment Agency Wales. A regulating order has been passed, but it needed the authority of the EAW and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. It would be intolerable if such a body could regulate on its own. I do not believe that that was the Ministers intention, or that of his predecessor, in drafting the order and my amendments are merely intended to help to resolve the situation. I could give further examples, but in view of the time and the fact that it is essential that we hear from the Minister on this important point, I shall conclude my remarks.
Mr. Heald: The original Bill attracted widespread criticism because it allowed such wide sub-delegation. Throughout our proceedings, the Opposition and, indeed, the Liberal Democrats, have tried to frame amendments in a way that might lure the Minister into accepting them. We did not get far in Committee, but things are going a bit better now, so I hope that the Minister might at least give us some assurances about later stages of the Bill in the other place.
I accept that there could be one sub-delegation to achieve the mergers that we were talking about yesterday in respect of the Hampton review, where it might be necessary to allow sub-delegation to a regulatora point that I discussed with the Ministers predecessor in Committee. However, to allow the possibility for continuous, chain sub-delegation, whereby there is sub-delegation to one person who has the power to make secondary legislation, including the power to sub-delegate again, and so on, is a bit muchor a lot too much. New clause 15 is aimed at that situation. I support the idea that there should be a limit to the amount of sub-delegationthe length of the chain.
The point that there should be proper consultation before the use of secondary legislation for such purposes is well taken, so although, as the hon.
Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) rightly pointed out, I have reservations about subsection (2) of the new clause, given that the House did not vote for the provision that a veto by a specified number of Members of the House should be added to the Bill, I do not feel constrained by that technical point in supporting the new clause. We certainly support the new clause and I shall be interested to hear the Ministers response to it.
Mr. McFadden: I was pleased to hear that the hon. Member for North-East Hertfordshire (Mr. Heald) accede to the case for sub-delegation in some circumstances. The question before us is twofold. New clause 15 suggests that those to whom powers are sub-delegated should be subject to the same parliamentary processes as a Minister making an order. Powers to legislate are already exercised by entities other than Ministers in situations where statutory instruments are not always appropriatefor example, there are local authority powers to make byelaws that are not subject to any parliamentary procedure, but instead have to be authorised by the Secretary of State and must have set model procedures. The conditions set out in the new clause would not cater for those powers and as a result would require extensive public consultation and parliamentary time when that would often be inappropriate or unnecessary.
When making an order that confers a power to legislate, the nature of that power will be considered on a case-by-case basis and the order will set out the appropriate procedural requirements, depending on whom the power is conferred and its subject matter. That is the best approach, rather than being too rigid.
Amendments Nos. 7 and 8, tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Ellesmere Port and Neston (Andrew Miller), do not suggest that sub-delegation should not happen. He attempts to produce a list that defines to whom the phrase any person might apply. As with his contributions throughout these debates, there is much sense in what he suggests. There are various instances in which powers to legislate are exercised by bodies other than Ministers, and he has attempted to define some of them in amendment No. 8 and in his contribution. We do not propose to accept those amendments tonight, but I can tell him that the effort to define the term any person more clearly is something that we hope to reflect on, consider and return to, as the Bill makes progress in another place.
David Howarth: I thank the hon. Gentleman for giving way, especially as doing so probably spoils his effort to make the shortest speech of the evening, but I should like to encourage him in his question. If the provision in the Bill that sub-delegates the power to legislate in the first place were to include the possibility of further sub-delegation, and that was part of the original order, there is no reason to believe that further selling on of the power to legislate should be excluded.
Mark Fisher: That is a fair point, but it does not address my point about where that is dealt with in the Bill. The whole House has been enormously impressed by the way that the Minister, having picked up this brief only about three days ago, has mastered the intricacies and nuances of a very difficult and incredibly important Bill that goes to the very heart of our parliamentary democracy. The House has noted the Ministers grasp of the issue and is very impressed by it
Mr. McFadden: I advise my hon. Friend to read paragraph 31 of the volume of Halsburys Laws on administrative law and Bennion on statutory interpretation, where he will find the well-established legal principle that a statutory power must be exercised only by the person to whom it is given and that it cannot be sub-delegated to someone else, unless that it authorised.
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