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“Even Mr. Brown’s closest allies in the Commons are becoming frustrated with their preferred leader. Changing people who are set in their ways is very difficult according to one weary MP.”
This is clearly a decision made in haste by a Chancellor on the look-out for short-term revenue-raising measures. In fairness to the Paymaster General, it must be said that, as so often happens, the Chancellor has made a difficult decision and expected his junior Ministers to front for him. His decision will impede the spread of computer literacy in our country, not least among modestly paid employees and their families, at a time when, according to Hewlett Packard, our international competitors such as China and India are between them churning out more than 100,000 IT graduates a year.
The bottom line is that the Government could have refocused the exemptions to protect revenue for the taxpayer, and still have saved the scheme. They had that option, but they did not follow it because they wanted every penny that they could squeeze. Nevertheless, I call on the Government one last time to reverse this erroneous decision—although, sadly, I believe I know the outcome even before I ask the question.
Dawn Primarolo: In Committee of the whole House, I made it clear that there were a number of reasons why it was the right time to remove the exemption. I shall briefly repeat each one.
The home computer initiative has been used extensively by groups whom we would not generally expect to experience difficulty in accessing information technology. Twenty-five per cent. of participants in the scheme are higher rate taxpayers, more than twice the proportion among taxpayers as a whole. Furthermore, nearly a third of participants are employed in white-collar industries. In March, the Low Pay Commission published the findings of its review of benefits in kind, salary sacrifice schemes and the accommodation offset. It found that take-up rates were often low and that many part-time low-paid workers would gain no advantage from salary sacrifice schemes for home computers and other benefits in kind. The analysis shows that those who can afford to do so have the computers and those who cannot afford to do so, do not. The recommendation was, therefore, to refocus—not to amend—the scheme.
David Taylor:
It may be that the benefit of the scheme was focused on the middle class, IT-literate, higher paid section of the population, but many people would have been happier had the savings—some £200 million over three years—been refocused in a way that enabled access for older or less-well-off people in
certain areas. It could have been done perhaps through the community education system, which has had some problems in recent times.
Dawn Primarolo: My hon. Friend is right and I will come to that point.
The HMRC also had evidence that the tax exemption was being used beyond the scope of its original intention, not only in the equipment provided but in the marketing of the scheme, which implied that people could buy that equipment at prices offset against their salary sacrifice.
Julia Goldsworthy: Will the Paymaster General give way?
Dawn Primarolo: I shall come to the hon. Lady’s points and, if necessary, give way then.
The investment for the groups that my hon. Friend mentioned was specifically addressed in the digital review and the Low Pay Commission report. I shall come to those points when I have finished explaining why the scheme was not appropriate. It was the correct time for the Government to remove the exemption and better focus support on the groups of people in our community that my hon. Friend mentioned, so as to increase access to technology for the poorest, the unemployed, the elderly and the low paid. Salary sacrifice schemes cannot provide that access.
During proceedings in the Committee of the whole House, I announced that we would establish a dedicated digital inclusion team. That team has now been set up by the Department for Communities and Local Government, and is working closely with the City of London Corporation. It will champion examples of excellence in using highly effective and efficient information and communication technology to tackle the key drivers of exclusion. It will also promote leadership and understanding and inform decisions.
I also announced that the Government would change the aims and objectives of the digital strategy to focus on digital inclusion. The Treasury will collaborate closely with industry on meeting the goals of the digital strategy, building on the success of more than 6,000 UK online centres—more than half of which are located in the 2,000 most deprived wards in England. Some 90 per cent. of the population live within 5 km of one of those centres, and that is precisely the type of investment that is needed to reach those groups.
It is stunning that every time the hon. Member for Falmouth and Camborne (Julia Goldsworthy) is asked about the Liberal Democrats’ spending commitments, we are told that they have a commission and are thinking about it. Then she berates the Government for investment in making progress on tackling social exclusion—
Julia Goldsworthy: Will the Paymaster General give way?
Dawn Primarolo: I will give way to the hon. Lady if she will tell me where she will get the £300 million for the unfocused support of those who already have access to the technology and how she plans to tackle the exclusion of everybody else.
Julia Goldsworthy: Is it right that all the money saved from the withdrawal of the scheme will be reinvested in digital inclusion for vulnerable groups?
Dawn Primarolo: I have told the hon. Lady the Government’s plans for spending the money. She has a flipping cheek—I shall rephrase that. It is somewhat audacious of the hon. Lady to suggest that I should forecast future Government spending when she is not even prepared to make a current commitment on expenditure by her party on anything, let alone in this area.
I have made it clear that with the refocusing of the digital strategy, the setting up and use of the digital inclusion team and the discussions that we are having with industry, we are looking at how we can refocus support on targeted groups. I remind the hon. Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois) that if those people are low paid, unemployed or elderly, a salary sacrifice scheme will not help them, however it is amended. The point of the reports that the Government received was to demonstrate that the resources should now be directed at the groups I have mentioned.
The final question was about the remaining arrangements for when computer equipment is provided by employers solely for work purposes and the definition of “significant” in relation to private use. The HMRC’s interpretation of not significant is that
“where a computer is provided by an employer because it is necessary for an employee to have it available at home or in the office to carry out the duties of their employment, it is highly unlikely that any private use made of that equipment will be significant when compared to the business need.”
It is assumed that the business need would outweigh any consideration of private use. To put that point beyond doubt, the HMRC—in consultation with the employers—has drafted guidance with detailed explanations of the point, which is currently being scrutinised. Employers can still provide computers for business need.
It is entirely appropriate that the Government should refocus the resources. There is no hidden agenda. The agenda is clear and it involves reaching out to those who are excluded from information technology and ensuring that the regime as provided is properly used. That is precisely what we have done.
Julia Goldsworthy: I shall be brief. Although the hon. Member for Rayleigh (Mr. Francois) may not approve, I am sure that many other Members will be grateful.
The unfairness still stands. People who could have benefited from the home computer scheme will not be able to access it and, as has been said in previous debates and again today, many of those people are in blue-collar jobs and low-income households. Businesses have closed as a result of the end of the scheme, so what confidence can the Paymaster General expect businesses to have in the Government’s proposals to extend digital access to vulnerable groups? Why would they support or invest in future schemes, given their experience of the home computer scheme?
The right hon. Lady has not explained why the Government were not able to tighten the definition, when other countries were perfectly able to do so. For those reasons—
Mr. Francois: Will the hon. Lady give way?
Julia Goldsworthy: Of course I will give way to the hon. Gentleman, provided that he is succinct.
Mr. Francois: I cannot give the hon. Lady an absolute guarantee—that is subject to the Chair.
Having heard the Government’s explanation of what they have decided to do, we would very much like to join the hon. Lady in the Lobby if she decides to press the amendment to a vote. Does she agree that as the Paymaster General said that draft guidelines had been prepared on the “not significant” issue, it would be helpful if the Government placed a copy of the guidelines in the Library as soon as possible?
Julia Goldsworthy: I very much agree with the hon. Gentleman’s last point. I was hoping to intervene on the Paymaster General to ask her to place in the Library the evidence provided to her by HMRC that the scheme was being used beyond its scope.
For the reasons I have outlined, I feel that the issue is still significant and I shall press the amendment to a vote.
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 224, Noes 274.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baker, Norman
Barrett, John
Beith, rh Mr. Alan
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Bottomley, Peter
Brady, Mr. Graham
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Bruce, Malcolm
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burrowes, Mr. David
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Cable, Dr. Vincent
Campbell, rh Sir Menzies
Carmichael, Mr. Alistair
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Chope, Mr. Christopher
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clarke, rh Mr. Kenneth
Clegg, Mr. Nick
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Conway, Derek
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Crabb, Mr. Stephen
Curry, rh Mr. David
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, Philip
Davies, Mr. Quentin
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dodds, Mr. Nigel
Donaldson, Mr. Jeffrey M.
Dorrell, rh Mr. Stephen
Duddridge, James
Duncan, Mr. Alan
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Fabricant, Michael
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Foster, Mr. Don
Francois, Mr. Mark
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Gidley, Sandra
Gillan, Mrs. Cheryl
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Grayling, Chris
Green, Damian
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Grieve, Mr. Dominic
Hague, rh Mr. William
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harris, Dr. Evan
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heald, Mr. Oliver
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holmes, Paul
Horam, Mr. John
Horwood, Martin
Hosie, Stewart
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, David
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Jones, Mr. David
Kawczynski, Daniel
Keetch, Mr. Paul
Kennedy, rh Mr. Charles
Key, Robert
Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Laing, Mrs. Eleanor
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lamb, Norman
Lansley, Mr. Andrew
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Llwyd, Mr. Elfyn
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
MacNeil, Mr. Angus
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
Mates, rh Mr. Michael
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Mundell, David
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
O'Brien, Mr. Stephen
Oaten, Mr. Mark
Öpik, Lembit
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paisley, rh Rev. Ian
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Price, Adam
Prisk, Mr. Mark
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Reid, Mr. Alan
Rifkind, rh Sir Malcolm
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Angus
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Robinson, Mr. Peter
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Salmond, Mr. Alex
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Selous, Andrew
Shapps, Grant
Shepherd, Mr. Richard
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, David
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Smith, Sir Robert
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Syms, Mr. Robert
Tapsell, Sir Peter
Taylor, Mr. Ian
Taylor, Matthew
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Teather, Sarah
Thurso, John
Tredinnick, David
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Walter, Mr. Robert
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Watkinson, Angela
Webb, Steve
Weir, Mr. Mike
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Hywel
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Wilson, Mr. Rob
Wilson, Sammy
Winterton, Ann
Winterton, Sir Nicholas
Wright, Jeremy
Yeo, Mr. Tim
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Mr. Roger Williams and
Mr. Dan Rogerson
NOES
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Janet
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Austin, John
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Barlow, Ms Celia
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Bell, Sir Stuart
Benn, rh Hilary
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Blunkett, rh Mr. David
Bradshaw, Mr. Ben
Brennan, Kevin
Brown, Lyn
Brown, rh Mr. Nicholas
Browne, rh Des
Bryant, Chris
Buck, Ms Karen
Burden, Richard
Burgon, Colin
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Cairns, David
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clwyd, rh Ann
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cook, Frank
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cruddas, Jon
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dobbin, Jim
Dobson, rh Frank
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Dowd, Jim
Durkan, Mark
Eagle, Angela
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Etherington, Bill
Farrelly, Paul
Fisher, Mark
Fitzpatrick, Jim
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Flynn, Paul
Follett, Barbara
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Godsiff, Mr. Roger
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hain, rh Mr. Peter
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Hanson, Mr. David
Harris, Mr. Tom
Healey, John
Henderson, Mr. Doug
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hillier, Meg
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hodgson, Mrs. Sharon
Hoey, Kate
Hood, Mr. Jimmy
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Lynne
Jowell, rh Tessa
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Khan, Mr. Sadiq
Kidney, Mr. David
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Linton, Martin
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
MacDougall, Mr. John
MacShane, rh Mr. Denis
Mactaggart, Fiona
Mahmood, Mr. Khalid
Mallaber, Judy
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Martlew, Mr. Eric
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McCartney, rh Mr. Ian
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McFall, rh Mr. John
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
McKenna, Rosemary
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Merron, Gillian
Michael, rh Alun
Milburn, rh Mr. Alan
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffat, Anne
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mudie, Mr. George
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, rh Mr. Paul
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
Norris, Dan
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pope, Mr. Greg
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robertson, John
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruane, Chris
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Sarwar, Mr. Mohammad
Seabeck, Alison
Shaw, Jonathan
Sheerman, Mr. Barry
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, rh Jacqui
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stringer, Graham
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Tami, Mark
Taylor, Ms Dari
Taylor, David
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, Mr. Don
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Twigg, Derek
Ussher, Kitty
Walley, Joan
Waltho, Lynda
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Wills, Mr. Michael
Winnick, Mr. David
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Ian Cawsey and
Huw Irranca-Davies
Question accordingly negatived.
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