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David Anderson (Blaydon) (Lab): The debate about armed
forces personnel is about real people. Like most other hon. Members,
the real people that I knew in the armed forces were my relations,
although I did
not know my grandfather, who sadly died at the age of only 32 as a direct result of being poisoned with mustard gas in the Somme. I had two uncles, one of whom was a prisoner of war in Burma and made to work on the Burma railroad and another who, ironically, left the coal mines in 1928 because he hated working in them. He joined the Army and was taken prisoner at Dunkirk, fighting the rearguard action there. He ended up working in a Polish coal mine for four years. My father joined the RAF, but he was sent home after three days because, he was told, Youll do more important work back home digging coal, Geordie, than flying aeroplanes.
I do not have any personal or professional experience in the forces, but in a debate about armed forces personnel, I have relevant recent experience of the impact that our forces are having on the lives of ordinary people facing massive, extraordinary problems in Iraq. We have not just sent our forces to Iraq to fight a battle for us and then leave. Would that we had done thatit might have been a different story.
Our armed forces personnel in Iraq have a very difficult job, as the local people recognise. In March, I was fortunate enough to lead a delegation of Labour movement people to Iraq. Most of us had been against the war, and I still believe that the debate on weapons of mass destruction was not a fair one. However, the people whom we met said that they did not want to talk about WMD, because they were worried about GRTgetting rid of a tyrant.
The Iraqis saw our Government and armed forces as forces for good, and we must listen to them. It is easy for us to be critical and to point the finger, but our armed forces went into Iraq to get rid of a tyrant who had spent the best part of 20 years trying to wipe out an entire race of peoplethe Kurds. In Sulaimaniya, we saw examples of the torture that had been inflicted. In a matter-of-fact building about the size of a supermarket, on the main street in the middle of town, people had been hung in chains and subjected to electric shocks. They had suffered almost every horror that one could imagine.
Thanks to the action taken by the British Government and their coalition partners in 1991 to establish the no-fly zone, and thanks also to the work that still goes on, the people in the Kurdistan area of Iraq have been able to build a fledgling democracy. They have a Parliament with 111 Members, and the fact that 29 of them are women puts our institution to shame. Without our intervention, that would not have happened: instead, 200,000 more people would have been killed, many thousands more would have been buried alive, tortured and persecuted, and many more villages would have been wiped off the face of the earth. That is what was happening, yet many in the world community were turning a blind eye.
I still have concerns about how we went to war, but people in the area believe that we did the right thing on their behalf. We must listen to what they say, and we should continue to do the right thing, which means that we should remain there.
Madam Deputy Speaker: Order. I have allowed a degree of latitude in the debate, but I hope that the hon. Gentleman will now relate his remarks to armed forces personnel.
Mr. Anderson: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. My point is that, without the continued involvement of our armed forces in Iraq, the situation there would not be starting to improve. The real-life experience is that our troops are having a huge impact on peoples lives.
The people of Kurdistan want the UK to invest in their country. That is not happening yet, but we could use our military presence in a positive way. Our armed forces could protect UK businesses and investors, and provide security for people willing to put money into Kurdistan and work with the Government there. In that way, we could help spread democracy across the rest of Iraq. Our troops could play a very positive role in that respect. They could also help in our work with Kurds in this country, and thus provide more support for people in Iraq.
I have criticised Iraqs Government in the past, and I remain critical of the fact that trade union rights are still denied to Kurds and Iraqis. However, if our troops had not gone into Iraq, the debate about trade union rights would not be taking place at all. There was no such thing as a trade union movement in that country before our troops gave people there the scope to develop democratic institutions and have legitimate democratic arguments. The continuing presence of our troops in Iraq is allowing that process to go on.
There has been much discussion about whether our armed forces should stay in Iraq. Last night, the general secretary of the Kurdistan workers syndicate spoke at a meeting in this House. He was asked whether the time had come to withdraw British troops from Iraq, but his unequivocal answer was that that would be a catastrophe. Although he wants our troops to leave Iraq at the earliest possible moment, he made it clear that that moment has not arrived. The time to leave will come when the job is done. We should recognise that and continue to support the work of our troops.
We should help all the peoples of Iraq to rebuild their country, so that they can play their part in bringing peace and stability to the wider middle east. We must continue to protect them and their families from those who would destroy them or halt their progress along the road to democracy and the creation of genuine democratic structures. I did not see one British soldier when I was in Kurdistan, but their work and effort and their impact on the country was clear for all to see. It could be seen in peoples confidence in the way forward.
My words are in no way an apology for the Government nor for the bad behaviour of individual members of the armed forces. Wethe Houseasked the armed forces to do a job on our behalf and on behalf of other people in the world. We should be proud of the job they are doing and support them in doing it.
Robert Key (Salisbury) (Con): It is axiomatic that the Member of Parliament for Wiltshireindeed, all Wiltshire Members of Parliamentshould take seriously their responsibilities to the armed forces of this country, as well as the wives and families of those brave people and the civilian populations who support them.
Last Sunday, I was in the village of Fovant in Wiltshire at the annual drumhead service for the Fovant Badges Society. As we remembered the battle of the Somme, the Australian high commissioner reminded us of the part that Australia had played in the military history of our islands. In front of 34 Royal British Legion banners and about 300 veterans and their families, we sang our hearts out for the people who, on their way to and from the Somme, had carved in the chalk hillside their regimental badges, including the badge of the Anzacs.
That service brought home to me the continuity of military tradition in the county of Wiltshire. The memory goes much further back than the first world war and beyond the days when Salisbury plain was purchased by the War Department to be our primary training area: for 300 years, at 12 noon on the day after the poll, the Member of Parliament for Salisbury of the time has to ascend the balcony of the White Hart hotel in Salisbury and sing the marching song of the Wiltshire Regiment[Hon. Members: Sing it now.] Sadly, I am not allowed to, although I should love to; I have successfully sung the song six times and look forward to doing so a seventh time, and who knows how many more.
The ceremony illustrates the relationship between the military and the agricultural communities from which it drew its forces. For 300 years, the old county regiment of Wiltshire has fought with the British Army all over the world. There is an ancient and tattered flag in the nave of Salisbury cathedralthe very flag that the Wiltshire Regiment took up the Potomac river to sack the White House. I remind my American friends of that and point out the flag with great pleasure [Laughter.] They have a good chuckle, too.
We are talking about something much more important than mere history; it is living history. This is my first opportunity in a defence debate to recall with sorrow the passing into history of the Royal Gloucestershire, Berkshire and Wiltshire Regiment. We lament its passing, and I echo the words of those who have said that the geographical representation of the British regiments is important to our traditions and that we are losing something by further amalgamations. I hope that we shall stop them before we become just like any other old army. I remember, too, the Royal Wiltshire Yeomanry, which still exists but only as a company and not as a proud regiment.
We have talked much today about the strength of the regular forces. I note that on 1 April 2006 the naval service had a shortfall between trained requirement and strength of about 1,300 people, which is a decrease of 600 from the previous year. The RAF was 600 under strength in April 2006, and shortfalls have been recorded in four of the last five years.
At the same time, the Army needed 1,200 trained personnel to reach its requirements, which is two thirds of the shortfall recorded in the previous year. That is a move in the right direction and I am very relieved about it. After the Secretary of States announcement on Monday about Project Hyperion and the other defence acquisition hub announcements, I look forward to hearing more about the proposal to create a new three-star command for recruitment and training, which will, I hope, make the Army even more effective in that respect than it is already.
I offer some praise and comfort in respect of recruitment in very difficult days. It is always easy for the military to recruit when unemployment is very high. Of course, without the foundations laid by the previous Conservative Government, unemployment would not have fallen in the past nine years or so, but civilian staffing is also very important indeed, particularly in my constituency. The Secretary of State for Defence referred to the vital work of civilian staff. They are hugely important in my constituency, and they range from the defence scientists at Porton Down to the administrative grades in Land Command at Wilton.
I am not at all surprised that the Public and Commercial Services union has briefed very thoroughly, efficiently and accurately the Members of Parliament involved in the recent announcements. We need to remember that the number of civilian employees in the military has declined by 23 per cent. since 1997. I should say for the sake of accuracy that it has decreased by 45 per cent. since 1990, before that argument rears its head again. The civilian work force supporting the military has continually declined over the past 16 years, and we need to remember that when we are listening to the unions and others.
It is therefore very important that we consider the role of the civilian work force, and I wish to pass on my own very grateful thanks to all the scientific, industrial and administrative civil servants who work at the Defence Science and Technology Laboratory at Porton Downthe constant butt of criticism and inaccurate reporting and sometimes of vicious and inaccurate comments, even from Members of Parliament, as happened quite recently. The way in which a Member attacked DSTL was disgracefulits employees are the very people who provide the daily protection for our forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are working hard at Porton Down to protect our service personnel.
I also think of all the military and civilian staff at Winterbourne Gunner and the way in which they are training the military. Indeed, every police force in the country receives its chemical, biological and radiological training at Winterbourne Gunner outside Salisbury.
QinetiQ at Boscombe Down is a huge success story involving the privatisation of part of the old Defence Evaluation and Research Agency into DSTL, which remains public sector, and QinetiQ. I opposed that change not just because well over 1,000 people in my constituency were involved, but because I thought that it was wrong. I thought that something that Margaret Thatcher refused to privatise was likely to be not privitisable sensibly, but it turns out to have proved successful. QinetiQ at Boscombe Down now employs not 1,200 people, but nearly 1,800 people, and it is a hugely successful enterprise that provides an important part of the infrastructure of defence in this country.
I should also like to mentionI am not the first Member to do so todaythe importance of Defence Medical Services. Ever since I first served on the Defence Committee, back in 1995, I have been very concerned about what happened to Defence Medical Services. There was not a glorious transition. Nevertheless, we have what we have. Unfortunately, pay and salaries have dropped substantially. Negotiations are in progress as we speak, but a settlement should have been reached for the new uplifts in pay for armed forces doctors.
Besides the regular doctors and consultants, I pay tribute to the reservists and Territorials who play an absolutely crucial part. This year, the district hospital in my constituency has had five consultants operating in theatre in Afghanistan and Iraq. They make an enormous contribution. They forgo quite a lot to do it, but their work is extremely important. I hope that the Minister will be able to tell us some good news on progress in that respect in his winding-up speech.
I served on the Armed Forces Bill Committee earlier this yearmy third such engagement with an Armed Forces Bill and, I hope, my last because we might not need another one now that we have a tri-service Actso I should like to comment on the work of the Chaplain Generals Department. This is the first year in which the Army has provided for the spiritual welfare of men and women of faiths other than Christianity. I warmly welcome that and I am sure that it is a move in the right direction. I have seen Army chaplains at work in the fieldin particular in the Balkans, but elsewhere tooand I have been hugely impressed by their professionalism and by the high regard in which they are held by the people in their charge. I wonder whether they are better out in theatre than perhaps they are sometimes in the garrison towns around Salisbury plain. I do not know.
What I do know, however, is that during the passage of the Armed Forces Bill, we took evidence from families whose young men had suffered from bullying and worse and it was distressing to hear that, to them, the padre was just another officer who could not really be trusted. That gets to the nub of the problem with Army chaplains: they have a duty of confidentiality in relation to the confessional, but they also have a duty of confidentiality to the chain of command. I wonder whether that circle can ever be squared. It might be slightly easier in the Royal Navy, where a chaplain is not an officer. I do not know.
Mr. Gray: May I correct my hon. Friend slightly? He is quite right that, in the Royal Navy, chaplainsmy father was onedo not wear a badge of rank, but that does not mean that they are not officers. They bear the same rank as the person to whom they are speaking, so when they are speaking to a rating, they are themselves a rating. That is an important point.
Robert Key: That is crucial. It is a fascinating point and one that I would like to take up. Tomorrow, I will travel to York to the General Synod of the Church of England. It is interesting that the Chaplain Generals Department is fully accredited to the General Synod of the Church of England and will be represented there. I can see some interesting discussions taking place.
I would like
to say a few words about the Royal Military Police, who are hardly ever
mentioned, except when things go wrong. I first came across the Royal
Military Police in my constituency. Then, as now, five different police
forcesmost of them military of different colours and badges and
so onwere operating in my constituency. The Royal Military
Police were always around in their vehicles. Late on a Saturday night,
if there was a spot of bother in the garrison towns at closing time,
Wiltshire constabulary put a quick call through to the RMP and suddenly
everyone calmed down and disappeared very quickly indeed, because the
disciplinary procedure is quite different. Someone who is picked up by Wiltshire constabulary is in the cells overnight, rapped over the knuckles by the magistrates and let out the next morning; someone who is caught by the RMP is up on charges in front of the commanding officer the next morning and is fined £700. That is a no-brainer.
I next met the RMP when I was in Sarajevo, Banja Luka and elsewhere in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1996. We had close protection squads from the RMP looking after us. They were very dangerous days. I was full of admiration thenand nowfor the work that they do. The strange thing is that, in battle, the RMP are always right out there at the front. They are in front of the armour and the artillery, staking out the forward route in their Land Rovers and so on. They are very lightly armoured, if at all, and they have no protection from mines, small arms or artillery. I know that that is being addressed. I have raised the matter before with the Minister of State. We know that there is a new stream of Panther vehicles coming to the Army later. However, what bothers me is that, in a parliamentary question, I asked who was going to get those vehicles first, and the answer was the training regiments. That is fine, but no mention was made of the RMP. I thought that we were talking about what was meant to be a front-line reconnaissance vehicle.
Mark Pritchard: Does my hon. Friend agree that, although it is important that those vehicles come on stream as soon as possible, it is equally important that there is forward planning by the Ministry of Defence when it comes to the training on those vehicles, so that there is no gap between training and deployment?
Robert Key: Yes, that is a natural consequence. I am sure that the Minister will have taken that on board.
Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): On the Panthers, which are feeding through soon, is my hon. Friend aware that the theatres and situations in which they can be used are limited? They were preferred to the RG-31s, which are much more flexible, have performed extremely well in Iraq and are used by the Canadians in Kandahar province.
Robert Key: I am well aware of both that and my hon. Friends advocacy of the RG-31s.
Ann Winterton: They are cheaper and better.
Robert Key: Well, fine, someone must have evaluated them along the line. In any event, those out in the front of the Royal Military Police should have these vehicles, or some equivalent.
When peacekeeping, as we are seeing in Iraq, the RMP has the most difficult task of gathering evidence in terribly difficult circumstances. The special investigation branch has to go out in dangerous circumstances in inadequate vehicles. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure me and say that the Royal Military Police will indeed have an early choice of the use of the vehicles for their vital tasks both in battle and peacetime work.
I wonder what it is about the Royal Military Police, but the way in which other people in the military perceive its members is generally not very flattering, with a lot of references to coppers and so on. There is probably just old-fashioned, time-expired snobbery towards the coppers. Talking of rank, can the Minister tell me why there has never been a Royal Military Police officer above the rank of two star? That is fascinating? Again, talking of rank, my colleagues on the Defence Committee and I wonder why no woman in the Army has ever exceeded the rank of brigadier. I suppose that there is a glass ceiling.
There was an announcement earlier this week about Project Hyperion, which is crucial to my constituency. I am talking about the future of 1,700 people who are being moved from Upavon, which is in the constituency of my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Devizes (Mr. Ancram), and Wilton, which is in my constituency, to south Andover. My right hon. Friend the Member for North-West Hampshire (Sir George Young) thus has the good fortune of receiving those people in his constituency, but it will be very much our loss.
HQ Land Command and the Adjutant-Generals department are being amalgamated, which is sensible. Like in every other service, it makes good sense for the Army to have one headquarters. However, it is not as simple as that. We are talking about disruption to the lives of a lot of loyal civilian workers in the military. In fact, there will be 200 civilian job losses and about 100 military redeployments.
The process marks the end of a long and historic association. Owing to the generosity of the then Earl of Pembroke, Southern Command took over Wilton House in the dark days of 1940. It was in the famous double cube room of Wilton House that Generals Montgomery and Eisenhower planned the Normandy landings and the liberation of France and Europe. While the Army was there, it acquired land from the Wilton estate and built the Erskine barracks on the other side of the A36. That site is now the headquarters of the largest budget holder in the British Army, and there is a work force of 1,300 on that site alone. The fortunes of the military and civilian communities are intertwined economically and socially. We have married quarters at both Bulbridge, which is south of Wilton, and Erskine barracks itself.
I was grateful to the Minister of State, Ministry of Defence, the right hon. Member for East Kilbride, Strathaven and Lesmahagow (Mr. Ingram), for writing to me on 3 July to fill in the statement of the Secretary of State. He said that no future defence use had been identified for the Wilton or Upavon sites, but:
I do not rule out the possibility that a use will be identified, but at present our assumption is that both sides will close once the new HQ is fully operational at Andover. However, we will retain the married quarters at both sites.
when will Ministers be able to rule out a further defence use?
Sensible, rational planning is needed on a new future for the site,
which is strategically important because it is on the railway and the
A36. What is the relationship with Project Allenby? Will we be told at
the last minute that the draw-down for Germany, the pressures of
Project Allenby, the rebuilding of the military estate and the move
from Aldershot towards Wiltshire will
mean that extra accommodation is needed for the military? That uncertainty should be ended as soon as possible. Who owns the site anyway? For two years, I have pursued the question of Crichel Down rules, which always come back to haunt us. The personnel who work at Land Command do not know whether they own the site. It is hugely important to decide whether the land will revert to the estate or whether the Treasury will sell it off.
We are delighted that the married quarters are to be retained, but what does that mean? Addington Homes owns the Erskine married quarters, but I do not know whether it owns Bulbridge. Civilians and military personnel have been consulted, and the Secretary of State has reinforced the importance of doing so. At both national and local level, the trade unions will be consulted, which is welcome. So far, however, the county council and the district council, which is the planning authority, have not been consulted. More importantly, the people of Wilton and their elected representatives on Wilton town council have not been consulted.
The town of Wilton is a proud and ancient community that pre-dates the city of Salisbury and gave its name to the county of Wiltshire. It has recognised the role of thousands of armed forces personnel for nearly 70 years, so the Ministry of Defence should not think for a moment that Wilton does not care about that momentous decision. On the contrarythe people of Wilton care passionately about their relationship with the military, the land that it has occupied for all those years and the married quarters that the town will continue to host. I hope that a team from Defence Estates or the most appropriate agency will meet the local authorities, particularly Wilton town council, to ensure that their voice is heard. That site must remain in the ownership of the local community, emotionally if not legally.
We must consider the security of armed forces personnel before they move to south Andover. The interface between the Home Office constabulary, Wiltshire police and the service police is crucial for both armed forces personnel and civilians. The patrolling of the married quarters estates at Bulbridge and Erskine barracks was undertaken by the Ministry of Defence police, but they have already moved from Erskine barracks to Tidworth on Salisbury plain. The military guard, the familiar Army security control vehicles and the Royal Military Police are all part of a sensitive security network that shields hundreds of armed forces personnel and the local community. We would therefore like to know more about the proposals. The leader of the district council has set up a taskforce on behalf of the planning authority, and I very much hope that there will be a matching commitment by the Ministry of Defence to work with the local community.
Finally, may I simply reiterate the admiration that I share with many right hon. and hon. Members on both sides of the House for the work of armed forces personnel, whether they are in theatre at the sharp end or are in the background providing the infrastructure to allow the countrys soldiers, sailors and airmen to do their magnificent work on our behalf around the world? We can be proud of their role, and very proud, too, of all the civilians who support them.
Ann Winterton (Congleton) (Con): I am always diffident about taking part in defence debates, as I have not served in the armed services, although I have relatively recent connections with the forces. My husband was a national service officer, and our elder son was a regular officer in the same regimentthe 14th/20th Kings Hussars. As we speak, his second son is at a combined cadet force camp on Dartmoor, so perhaps there will be a third generation in the armed services in due course.
At the outset of my brief contribution, may I pay tribute to all our armed service personnel, who are the very best services in the world and serve with great distinction and valour? May I extend my deepest sympathies to families who have been bereaved, some very recently indeed?
It is an obvious thing to say but also true that without people who are prepared to join the Army, Navy and Air Force to serve our country, we would have no armed forces. One of the key problems being faced is the important issue of recruitment and retention, which has been mentioned in the debate. We are frequently told by Ministers that because the United Kingdom has enjoyed a successful economy for some time, difficulties in recruiting have been exacerbated. The only answer that the MOD has come up with to date to seek to solve the problem is to pour massive amounts of money into recruitment in the hope of attracting sufficient personnel for the future.
However, we all are aware that money is getting tight and the Chancellor will probably not be too keen on providing more, in spite of the United Kingdoms many and ongoing military commitments in various theatres. I believe that the problem is far more deeply rooted than just competition in the employment market place. The unemployment figures are beginning to creep up nationally, so in a relatively short time that reason will, perhaps, no longer be valid.
We should cast our minds back to December 1998 during the negotiations on the St. Malo agreement. It was at that time that the Prime Minister decided that the UK would not join the euro. In all matters relating to the European Union, there can never be a straight decision. There is always a trade offthat is, a price to be paid. In this instance, the UK conceded and agreed that our forces would be integrated into a European Union defence force.
From that time onwards, the Ministry of Defence did not quite know in what direction it would have to commit our armed forces in the future. Would the first priority be to serve the interests of the UK, or to co-operate with the European Union or with the United States of America, or a combination of all three? If the MOD did not know in which direction it was meant to be going, how could members of the armed services second-guess the future? Subsequently, the problems have been exacerbated because the UK is engaged in conflicts in which our troops are committed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
has been well understood that, moving on from the former cold war
scenario, changes would have to be introduced and the concept of the
future Army structure came to light with its objective of strengthening
the medium sector. It is crystal clear that we are without a
whole category of vehicles suitable for insurgency work, and this lack has been shown in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The focus and direction of policy has been to prioritise the future rapid effect system, which is an integral part of the European Union rapid reaction force, but which realistically will not be in operation until possibly as late as 2020. Moreover, the whole project falls into a world of fantasy in which the total package requires airlift, electronics, future technology and state of the art communication at a projected overall cost of £6 billion initially, which ballooned almost overnight to £14 billion.
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