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As the hon. Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Angela Browning) said earlier, about 260,000 of the estimated 330,000 people of working age in the UK with an autistic spectrum disorder are thought to be of average or above average intelligence and yet only 6 per cent. of all people with an autistic spectrum disorder are in full-time paid employment. We need to do better. However, unlike some of the disabilities, once a suitable job is found for someone with an autistic spectrum disorder, it is essential that continuing support is available while that person is in work. Because of difficulties in social interaction and communication, working environments can present many problems. Regular meetings or access to someone to call on can prevent the breakdown of a job and the sense of failure that may follow that.
That support to individuals in employment is best delivered by specialist agencies that have a deep level of understanding, as well as a commitment to ongoing support. For those with an autistic spectrum disorder, the National Autistic Society’s prospects servicehas a proven success record of achieving lasting employment. Several patients’ organisations have expressed their concern that contracts are tending to be awarded to larger, less specialised providers who may not be able to provide effective support for individuals with particular needs.
It will be necessary to monitor closely the categories of those who are found employment and who receive support in that employment. In that respect, there is concern about outcome-based contracts, if that outcome relates to numbers rather than the detailed analysis of those who have received help and are continuing to receive ongoing support. There is a great deal that the voluntary sector can offer in the provision of services. I was particularly interested to hear of the Citizens Advice suggestion that it and other organisations could be involved in the delivery of certain services, such as providing independent financial advice to people who are considering a return to work or advice to employers who need to know about the new benefit structure and their rights and responsibilities to employees with mental or physical health problems. Such use of the voluntary sector would also bring reassurance to those with an illness or disability.
One area of concern that has been raised by several organisations, and this evening, is that much of the detail of the legislation has been left to regulations. May we have a reassurance that sufficient time willbe allowed for consultation on that detail? The effectiveness and responsiveness of the new system will depend on the detailed application of the legislation.
Another point of concern is the extension of theuse of sanctions from attendance at interview to involvement in work-related activity, especially since it is suggested that that work-related activity could be changed by a personal adviser at any time. Sanctions should be applied only by qualified staff who understand the medical conditions or disability of the individual who might lose some financial benefit, rather than private or voluntary sector providers. If necessary, reference should be made to a person with greater knowledge of the condition, such as a hospital consultant.
Care will need to be taken before applying sanctions in all cases. It will be necessary to consider the impact of a person’s disability on his or her ability to comply. For example, there must be consideration of whether people with a learning disability can understand what is required of them and whether they receive sufficient support to enable them to comply with the requirement.
I welcome
the Secretary of State’s earlier reassurance about those with
mental illnesses, but Rethink has concerns about clause 17, whereby
people could be disqualified from receiving ESA if their capability of
work was reduced through their own misconduct, their failure to take
medical advice without good cause, or their failure to observe the
prescribed rules of behaviour. Patients with mental health problems
might cease medication because of side effects. They could
present with unusual behaviour, or might not attend for interview
because of their
condition.
People with autism might appear to be not engaging with the process because they have difficulty with social interaction. The difficulty that people with an ASD have with social communication can affect verbal and non-verbal communication, so facial expressions and tones of voice might cause misunderstanding. Along with difficulties with social imagination, which includes planning ahead and the flexibility of thought, those problems make it difficult to acquire and maintain a job. It is important that great care is taken when applying sanctions to those with chronic, long-term conditions that might fluctuate, such as lupus.
Lynne Jones (Birmingham, Selly Oak) (Lab): Does my hon. Friend agree that one of the best ways of helping people to get work-ready and to overcome the stigma that many experience when trying to get jobs from employers, especially if they have mental health problems, is for them to do voluntary work? Does she share my concern that the Department for Work and Pensions recently ruled that people doing voluntary work could no longer receive payments for lunch, or free lunches, while doing such work without that affecting their benefits, which is hardly in accordance with the social inclusion agenda?
Mrs. Dean: I agree entirely. It might be that some people with long-term conditions who would find it difficult to retain employment would be better advised to undertake voluntary activity when their illness allows, rather than feeling pressured to enter paid employment in which they might be destined to fail, which would have a consequential negative effect on their well-being. Although we want all people to have the opportunity to work, we must accept that the loss of benefit, however little that benefit is, in some ways, can cause some people great concern and make their condition worse. Voluntary work can be a real bonus to many people.
We must make sure that the Bill is seen as a positive effort to change the lives of people with illness and disability and to ensure that everyone can reach their full potential. Sanctions should be a last resort that are kept only for those who try to abuse the system. The success of ESA will be in the detail. We will need to ensure that staff are properly trained and that the focus is on the individual who needs advice and support to find and keep a job.
8.3 pm
Mr. Robert Syms (Poole) (Con): It is a pleasure to contribute to the debate, which has been extremely thoughtful and well considered. We have heard from a lot of people who are experts in the field, although I do not pretend to be one of those. I was certainly impressed with the speech made by my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton (Angela Browning), who certainly has great specialist knowledge. She and the hon. Member for Kingswood (Roger Berry) made very good contributions to the debate.
I would first
like to talk about the antisocial behaviour aspect of the Bill. All of
us have met
constituents in our surgeries with antisocial neighbours on their
estates. We thus write letters to the chief executive of the local
council and feel frustrated not only for ourselves, but on behalf of
our constituents. The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr.
Field) did us all a great service with his private Member’s
Billon withdrawing benefit from those who displayed antisocial
behaviour. I was initially pleased with the measures in the Bill, but
the more I consider them, the more I think that they are rather
disappointing.
The withdrawal of housing benefit is to be a threat after eviction, but I do not think that the power will be used very often. We heard from the Secretary of State earlier that the Government will be sensitive to situations involving children. The power will be used in very few cases. There would be merit in allowing local authorities to use housing benefit as a lever before they reach the point of eviction, largely because that might present the opportunity to modify people’s behaviour before they lose their home and their families become homeless.
The hon. Member for Inverness, Nairn, Badenoch and Strathspey (Danny Alexander) made a good point about schemes that local authorities can run to provide rehabilitation and to change people’s behaviour. It would be far better to have several sanctions that local authorities could use to improve people’s behaviour, rather than the measure in the Bill, which can be used only after an eviction. As we know, an eviction is always an extreme case. I cannot foresee that the sanction would be used in very many cases. I do not understand the logic of the measure, so I hope that my Front-Bench colleagues will examine it in Committee.
Paul Rowen (Rochdale) (LD): Given that such people would have already been evicted once, does the hon. Gentleman agree that a more effective sanction would be a probationary tenancy, which would allow a local authority to remove an offending person immediately without going through the rigmarole of removing benefits?
Mr. Syms: The hon. Gentleman makes a good point. My central point about the antisocial behaviour measure is that although it sounds tough, it will not be used very often. If the powers were a little more sweeping, chief executives of local authorities and housing departments would be in a much better position to tackle the problem. The way in which neighbours are dealt with is one of the biggest problems that many of our constituents face.
I welcome the
measures in the Bill on benefit fraud, including the “two
strikes and you’re out” approach, for which it is
sensible to extend the relevant period from three to five years. I
listened carefully to my hon. Friend the Member for Hammersmith and
Fulham (Mr. Hands), who spoke with great experience about
housing benefit and the local housing allowance. Generally speaking, I
am in favour of the way in which the Government are going. It is
sensible to move towards a more market-related solution, although I
understand my hon. Friend’s real concerns about how large a
region or area is. London has specific problems because great
discrepancies can be seen even a few miles apart. I certainly welcome
the suggestion of further trials. However, in any sort of use of the
welfare
state, it is important, when possible, to increase the amount of
personal responsibility that people have. We should not always assume
that people have to rely on the state to do everything for the outcomes
that they want.
When I first read the figures for incapacity benefit, I was rather shocked that 2.71 million people, or 8 per cent. of the working age population, are on incapacity benefit and that more than half those people had been on it for more than five years. I was also a little shocked to find that 40 per cent. of those people had mental or behavioural problems, because that is an extremely high figure. I also noted that the number of young people on incapacity benefit has gone up by 71 per cent. There is evidently a big problem.
As we have heard throughout the debate, if we are to tackle poverty and social exclusion, and deal with child poverty in particular, we must bite the bullet by tackling incapacity benefit and doing our best to get as many people as possible into the work force. The Government have set quite an ambitious target, whether the figure is 1 million or the 640,000 that my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) cited, but until we know all the details—problems with draft regulations have been mentioned—it is difficult to be too specific about several aspects of the Bill.
Early intervention is important. There has been little mention of the national health service, but we all know that some people on incapacity benefit are waiting for operations. They are thus waiting for the NHS to assist them by putting them in a position in which they can go back to work—so it is important to have joined-up government.
I welcome the fact that the Government are allowing private, voluntary or not-for-profit organisations to deliver some of the pathway projects, although I understand the concerns raised by my hon. Friend about their not being given enough latitude to bring innovation into the system. That is one thing that the private and voluntary sector can do.
There is an ambitious programme. According to the Library, even Poole has 3,200 people on incapacity benefit—about 6 per cent. of the working age population. That is a lot of people. If the Government’s target is to be met, about 1,000 people will have to move from incapacity benefit into work. As my hon. Friend the Member for Tiverton and Honiton said, it is important that to do the assessment, there is a range of people who understand the problems that people have. With mental difficulties and behavioural problems, it is important that niche services are provided, so that we get it right.
As was
mentioned earlier, the problem is that if we do not get it right, there
are consequences both for the individuals if they go back into work and
do not stick a particular course, and for employers. If employers take
on someone with a particular problem and it works out, they may go back
and take on a second, third or fourth person. However, if it does not
work out, the whole scheme may fail. It is important that we do not
just focus on individuals. We also have to focus on employers and
educate them. Clearly, if we are to mobilise a lot of people on
incapacity benefit—many of them have specific problems, and
niche problems—it
will be a big job to educate employers on how to deal with that and to
get the best out of them.
Broadly, I welcome the Government’s direction. Much will depend on the details, and the detail in regulation. I am sure that my hon. Friends on the Front Bench will test many of the propositions in Committee. There is a degree of consensus, and it is important that we give this large number of people the right and the opportunity to get back into work, because of the impact that it will have on their lives, the state of their mental health and so on. As we all know, work is important. It must be very difficult for those who are denied it who feel that they have been sentenced to many years on benefit, without the tools to get back into work and to join in many of the things that the rest of us who have worthwhile jobs do.
8.12 pm
Miss Anne Begg (Aberdeen, South) (Lab): I welcome the tone of the debate on both sides of the House. It has been a positive discussion. That reflects the briefing papers that I received—perhaps other hon. Members were also deluged by them—from various organisations with an interest in welfare reform. There has been a general welcome for the principles of the Bill, although inevitably there was concern about the detail.
I want to concentrate on the first half of the Bill, which deals with disability and getting people with disabilities and ill health back into the workplace. Many other things in the Bill are also important, such as provisions covering lone parents, people over 50 and housing benefit. I am afraid that I do not have the expertise in housing benefit that my hon. Friend the Member for Regent's Park and Kensington, North(Ms Buck) has. She said that she had an unhealthy interest in housing benefit. I am glad to say that I do not, but I do know that it is very important to many of our constituents. They are often in a benefits trap because of housing benefit. That is a particular problem for those in the private rented sector. Their rent is so high that they cannot afford to get into work, but they cannot get a council house because, although their housing provision is extremely expensive, there is nothing wrong with it and the council think that they are adequately housed. However, the problems that my constituents face are nothing compared with those that the constituents of London MPs must face. I do not know how people can afford to live and work in London, because of the huge cost of housing.
It is important that the debate has been couched in the tone that has been used today. It has taken a long time for us to get to this stage. I remember a journalist at the last Queen’s Speech saying that the Government would have to face down their rebels on welfare reform and that there would be huge opposition to it. Instead, we have discovered that there is no major opposition on either side of the House. That is a tribute to officials and Ministers at the Department for Work and Pensions, who have managed to change the tone of the debate by talking about welfare reform as a positive thing that will be good for people. They have said that it needs to be done, and that as a result, people will be better off.
Like my hon. Friend the Member
for Kingswood (Roger Berry), I have spoken to disabled people and
they have been apprehensive about what reform means. MPs take reform to
mean change for the better, but in the collective memory of many
disabled people, “reform”, “welfare reform”
and “benefit reform” have meant changes that have
resulted in them being worse off, with a worse service and less money
from the Government. It has taken a long time to change their
perception and to build up trust in the Government’s actions as
being something to their benefit, not to their
detriment.
One way in which the Government have done that is by having examples of good practice that they can point to. Those examples are not only in the pathways to work projects. Many hon. Members mentioned specific programmes in their constituencies which have worked. Aberdeen Foyer has been incredibly successful in dealing with predominantly young people who live on the margins of society and who are often recovering drug addicts. It has delivered a number of welfare-to-work programmes, including progress to work and getting people to the job-ready stage, capable of doing a work-focused interview and getting into work. The examples exist to show that such success is possible. Whether it is down to DWP staff themselves, the third sector or, in some cases—this is particularly true in Glasgow—the private sector, there are models that work. That has begun to allay some of the fears of many disabled people.
It is also important that reform is not aboutsaving money. Although ultimately it should save the Government money—partly because when people get off benefit and into work they will contribute to the Exchequer in the form of paying taxes, rather than taking from it—that is always a side issue. It must never be the central issue for any kind of welfare reform. The aim is to make welfare work for people, and for it not to be a barrier.
One of the big disincentives to work has been the welfare system itself. We talk about the different barriers that disabled people face, but disability or ill health is often not the primary barrier to disabled people getting into work. Sometimes that is three, four or five strands down the list. Child care and travel to work may be bigger barriers than a disability. There is no doubt, however, that the welfare system is one of the main barriers to work. That cannot be a good system.
Danny Alexander: I agree about the barriers to work in the welfare system. Does the hon. Lady share my concern about the taper for housing benefit and council tax benefit? On going into work, people find that they lose their benefit at the rate of 85p in every pound, so the incentive to work is much less than it should be.
Miss
Begg: It is important that work must always pay. That is
why I always have been a very strong supporter of the tax credit
system; it has made sure that people in work are obviously better off
than those out of work. Whether a taper at 85 per cent. for housing
benefit or council tax benefit is correct—perhaps it is on the
sharp side and could be flattened slightly—the
Government’s overriding concern must be to ensure that there are
no disincentives in the welfare
system, and that people do not think that they are working for nothing.
I do not accept the argument, “Well I’m not working for
£20 a week extra,” because people are in fact working for
£200 or whatever it is in benefit, plus the extra. If everybody
took the attitude that they were working only for any amount above what
they would receive on benefit, we would not have enough people in the
workplace to pay for benefit for others.
Work in itself has value, not just because of social contact and many other reasons, but because it is easier for someone in work to get a better job. I am not as critical as many about people coming off incapacity benefit and going into entry-level jobs, because once they have on their CV the fact that they are able to sustain that job, they will be able to move up the chain of employment skills. They certainly cannot go in further up that chain without the experience that they gain from being in work.
Some organisations have expressed concerns that the Government must address. When pathways to work is rolled out across the country it is crucial that it must not be “pathways lite”—a watered down version. Ithas been so successful because of the investmentand dedicated work of those in the DWP and in organisations brought in to provide the employment programmes.
I will not go on about what will be in the regulations, because that has been covered by other hon. Members, although all the organisations that wrote to me were certainly keen to have sight of them, and for the matter to be addressed.
I was going to say a great deal about the role of rehabilitation and preventive measures, but I could not possibly follow the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for City of York (Hugh Bayley), who summed up everything that I had planned to say on the issue far more eloquently. Employers have a responsibility to ensure that those who are already in work do not fall out of work, to keep them in work for as long as possible and to adapt the workplace to ensure that they remain.
I have some questions about work-related activity. Is there a role for somebody to become a perpetual volunteer? Some hon. Members have said that there must somehow be an end to work-related activity, when somebody must enter a job—but that might not be the best solution for everybody. I think of someone who has a progressive condition who would not want to be written off completely and be on the support element alone, and who would want the employment support element of benefit. Volunteering could provide enough hours to keep them in a workplace of sorts. Volunteering is not necessarily less valuable than paid work, so there might be a case for allowing someone to remain on the higher level of benefit but continually to have a volunteering role. That would overcome the problem that some face of putting their benefit in jeopardy as a result of volunteering.
I am also interested in the
Government’s comments on the backdating of holding benefit. I
accept that holding benefit will be at jobseeker’s allowance
levels for those who are going on to the employment and support
allowance, because that is at the level drawn by other unemployed
people—but what about people who have been diagnosed with a
terminal illness or have a
rapidly progressive condition? If they have to wait three months to
receive the higher benefit and it is not backdated, it might be too
late for them. My hon. Friend the Minister for Employment and Welfare
Reform is nodding, so hopefully there is an answer to that.
Finally I want to talk about where things are still very difficult and specific help must be given—in the area of mental health. Every organisation that has written to me, and all those to which I spoke last summer when I was consulting on issues in the White Paper, mentioned stigma and discrimination, and the fact that employers need to change their attitudes. That is still regarded by many with mental health problems as the biggest barrier to work. I do not have problems with conditionality, provided that it is there for a purpose, that it is not punitive and that the support is right. We often heard complaints that that would be a problem with the new deal for the young unemployed, but it turned out not to be so. Provided that the programme in which people are engaged is of a sufficiently high standard, conditionality does not become a problem, and instead acts as an incentive to get people through the door and over the threshold so that they can see what they can do to open up life for themselves.
Several hon. Members rose—
Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Michael Lord): Order. Clearly a large number of hon. Members are seeking to catch my eye. If Members take considerably less than 12 minutes each, it would be very helpful and allow me to call many more Members.
8.26 pm
Mr. Mike Weir (Angus) (SNP): I should like to say at the outset that the Scottish National party and Plaid Cymru are not opposed in principle to the objectives of the legislation.
In my experience, most people on disability benefits genuinely want to work, but there are many barriers to that aim and it is those rather than a wish to languish on benefits that prevent them from doing so. In so far as the legislation genuinely helps and encourages people, providing support for them to get into work and, crucially, to retain work, it will have our wholehearted support.
One problem, however, is that we are effectively debating in a vacuum, because we do not yet have the regulations that will set out the detail of the system. Mencap makes the telling point in its briefing that the Bill refers to regulations 243 times in its 73 pages, which is more than three times a page. I appreciate that the Minister has said that the regulations will be published prior to considering the Bill in Committee and that is welcome, but I reiterate that we need to see them well before that stage so that we can consider the detail and so that those of us who are lucky enough to serve on the Committee do not have to deal with them there and then.
The hon. Member for Aberdeen,
South (Miss Begg) made some very good points. Like her, I arranged
meetings with groups in my constituency and throughout Tayside to
discuss the White Paper when it
was first published. The meetings were useful. In some cases I was able
to reassure people about some of the more wild stories. One headline in
Third Force News read “Welfare Reform Plans Outrage
Disability Groups”. The reason behind it was a comment made by
the Secretary of State about more responsibility and increased
obligations. In the early stages, there was much concern among groups
representing disabled people that the reforms would impact seriously on
them. As it turned out, as is often the case, once the White Paper was
published and looked at, people realised that it was not as bad as had
been trailed.
The meetings were also useful because they enabled me to make a submission to the consultation. One of the principal concerns, which is reflected in various briefings that have been sent to us, is about the scope of the personal capability assessment. Every hon. Member must have had a number of constituents raising concerns about the operation of the current system and claims of inadequacy of the assessment by the medical practitioner appointed by the DWP. It is interesting but hardly surprising to note the findings of the report “Paying the Price: the real costs of illness and disability” for Citizens Advice Scotland, which noted that there was a 63 per cent. success rate among its clients who appealed against a decision. That must suggest that a significant proportion of decisions were incorrect in the first instance.
In particular, many of those I consulted were concerned that the people assessing them did not have sufficient expertise in their condition. Many felt that they were given a cursory examination by a complete stranger who lacked relevant experience, and that is reflected in briefings. For example, Mencap said:
“The reform of the PCA must be carried out with expertise in learning disability factored in at every stage.”
“People should have a choice as to whether examinations, assessments or interviews occur at their own homes or at examination centres.”
Macmillan Cancer Relief made the very good point that people suffering from terminal cancer cannot be expected to go through the same assessment procedure as others. They should have the choice of being assessed at home, rather than in an examination centre. The more cynical could say that all those organisations are making special pleas for their own groups, but the crucial point is that they are all making the same pertinent argument. Whatever form the PCA takes, we must ensure that whoever carries out the assessment has expertise in the particular illness or disability from which the subject of the interview suffers.
Rethink
makes an additional point that people who suffer from severe mental
illness may not open letters or answer the telephone, not through ill
will, but often through forgetfulness or disorganisation. That is a
particular concern, as anyone who is deemed to fail to co-operate at
various stages could face benefit sanctions. A reasonable person would
conclude that allowances should be made for such situations, but I
encountered a similar problem with a constituency case, related not to
incapacity benefit but tax credits. My constituent has a bipolar mental
illness, and for long periods she does not open mail or, in fact, deal
with any of her affairs. She failed to fill in a form to renew her tax
credits, and they were stopped. She
received demands for repayment of tax credits, even though it appears
that she would have been entitled to them had she filled in the form.
The Department is insisting on repayment. I approached officials in the
Department, but I was told that they had absolutely no discretion in
the matter because the form had not been filled in.
I appreciate that that case does not relate directly to the Bill, but it shows what can happen when regulations do not take into account the specifics of particular conditions. Clearly, such situations are much more likely to occur in relation to incapacity benefits. I therefore urge the Minister to ensure that the regulations make provision for someone with sufficient knowledge of the condition to carry out the assessment. Alternatively, as some groups have suggested, much more weight could be given to a written medical assessment from people who are treating the applicant. At present, that does not seem to enter into the equation until the inevitable appeal.
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