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New clause 24 would require the IBB to refer barred people under 18 years old to therapeutic services. I have just explained my thinking on that issue, and I hope that that will satisfy hon. Members. Amendment No. 7 relates to paragraph 17(5) of schedule 2, which provides that the IBB must not take into account police information that the chief police officer “thinks” it would not be in the interests of the prevention or detection of crime to disclose to the person under consideration. The amendment seeks to replace “thinks” with “has reason to believe”. This amendment is unnecessary in drafting terms. It is intended that the chief officer should “think” that it
would not be in the interests of the prevention or detection of crime to disclose the information on the basis of a reasonable thought. So the chief officer must have a reason to justify his belief. This is lawyer talk, but these are the assurances that we have been given by our lawyers. On the introduction of the Bill in another place, subsections (1) and (3) of clause 26 contained the expression “reasonably thinks”. By amendments made at an early stage in the Bill’s progress the word “reasonably” was removed for the same reason—the word was considered legally unnecessary.
Amendment No. 11 applies to the obligation to refer to the IBB. This obligation arises when the employer dismisses or would have dismissed an employee. It is the employer’s own reason for making the dismissal that is important for purposes of the obligation to refer. There is no practical difference between an employer who has dismissed an employee because he “thinks” that the employee has harmed a child and an employer who has dismissed an employee because he has “reason to suspect” that the employee has harmed a child.
As we said in Committee, there is no question of a certain standard of proof having to be met before referrals under this clause have to be made. It will be for the IBB, when assessing the evidence, to determine whether the employee engaged in relevant conduct, and that will be assessed on the balance of probabilities. It is important that the IBB has all the evidence available to it on which to make a decision. It can then decide whether to accept the evidence. That is part of the professional judgment that we will expect the board to make.
7.45 pm
Under amendment No. 12 the IBB would have to give permission for a review of a previous decision to bar an individual. Paragraph 16 of schedule 2 already ensures that, when barred people ask for a review of their case, the IBB can refuse their request if it is obvious that there is no prospect of success. Our intention is that the IBB only has to “think” that someone may have a reasonable case for a review in order to give permission for a review to go ahead. In other words, the board must believe that it is possible that the individual’s circumstances have changed. It does not have to be satisfied that the person should be removed from the list at the stage at which it grants permission for a review. I hope that that explanation will satisfy hon. Members.
Amendment No. 13 raises the issue of the standard of proof in relation to the decision to include someone in the children’s list. Government amendment No. 113 makes it clear that this is a two-stage decision. The first stage is for the IBB to establish whether someone has engaged in “relevant conduct”. The board must be satisfied of this on the balance of probabilities, as we discussed in Committee. Having taken legal advice, however, I am satisfied that it is neither necessary nor usual to put such a requirement on the face of the Bill. The second stage is for the IBB to judge whether it is appropriate to bar the individual, and, as this is an expert opinion, it is not susceptible to a standard of proof. It is a matter for the IBB’s judgment.
Amendments Nos. 252 and 253 would ensure that all those who receive cautions for offences that would otherwise lead to automatic barring without the right to make representations would be given the right to make representations in relation to any exceptional circumstances that might warrant their removal from the list. I have already set out where we are coming from on this issue. In the case of cautions, an individual has admitted their guilt and we believe that they should be treated in the same way as someone who has been convicted of that offence. The automatic barring offences, without a right to make representations, will be restricted to a small number of the most serious sexual offences such as the rape of a child and the others that I mentioned earlier. In regard to these few offences, we do not believe that any exceptional circumstances could justify the individual being allowed to work with children. This is a clear and important safeguard under the new scheme, and we would not wish to water it down.
Amendment No. 251 was contingent on a new clause that was tabled by the Opposition tabled but not selected. On its own, it would mean that the regulations prescribing the offences that lead to automatic barring would not be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
Amendments Nos. 243 to 248 deal with people who are referred to the IBB on the ground that, although they have not engaged in relevant conduct, they may present a risk of harm to children or vulnerable adults. Amendments Nos. 243, 245, 247 and 248 would require the IBB to obtain an opinion from an appropriate professional that indicated that the person may present a risk of harm to children or vulnerable adults, before it could propose to include the person in either barred list. I reassure hon. Members that the practice of the IBB will ensure that expert views are obtained where appropriate. The IBB will itself be an expert body and will be able to assess a case once the evidence has been assembled.
Amendments Nos. 204 and 205 seek to provide a definition of harm to cover where an employer has to refer information to the IBB because an individual may pose a risk of harm to a child or vulnerable adult. Although I sympathise with the intention behind the amendments, I still believe that the Bill deals with the matter in the right way. Amendment No. 204 seeks to incorporate the concept of dignity, and amendment No. 205 the concept of financial loss, in the term harm. Those are both important concepts, but they would be included in the normal meaning of the term harm, which encompasses financial deprivation and the impairment of self-esteem and self-respect. Were we to accept the amendments, there would be a risk that if a further type of harm needed to be covered in future, it would be necessary to amend the definition through primary legislation—a problem that would not arise were we to rely on the normal meaning of the word. I therefore ask hon. Members not to press their amendments.
Clause read a Second time, and added to the Bill.
Amendment made: No. 19, in page 1, line 5, at end insert—
‘( ) Schedule (transfers to IBB) (transfers to IBB) has effect.’. — [Mr. Dhanda.]
Amendments made: No. 206, in page 3, line 13, after ‘Schedule’ insert
‘, or any of the modifications of that Schedule in the provisions mentioned in subsection (4),’.
No. 207, line 16, at end insert—
section (Offences: other persons)(8);
paragraph 4 of Schedule (employment businesses: failure to check).’. — [Mr. Dhanda.]
Amendments made: No. 208, in page 3, line 22, leave out ‘has responsibility’ and insert ‘is responsible’.
No. 209, line 23, after ‘activity’ insert—
‘( ) if the regulated activity is carried out for the purposes of an organisation, his exercise of that responsibility is not subject to supervision or direction by any other person for those purposes,’.
No. 210, line 24, after ‘makes’ insert ‘, or authorises the making of,’.
No. 20, line 26, at end insert—
‘( ) A person (P) is also a regulated activity provider if he carries on a scheme—
(a) under which an individual agrees with P to provide care or support (which may include accommodation) to an adult who is in need of it, and
(b) in respect of which a requirement to register arises under section 11 of the Care Standards Act 2000.’.
No. 21, line 26, at end insert—
‘(2A) A person (P) is also a regulated activity provider if section (Fostering)(4) (fostering) so provides.’.
No. 22, line 36, after ‘person’ insert ‘—
No. 23, line 37, leave out ‘(m), (n) or (o)’ and insert
‘or (m) or 6A(1)(a), (d) or (e)’.
No. 24, line 38, at end insert—
‘(b) as a deputy under section 16(2)(b) of the Mental Capacity Act 2005;
(c) as member or chief executive of IBB;
(d) to any position mentioned in paragraph (a), (b) or (f) of section 44(10) or to exercise any function mentioned in that subsection’.
No. 25, line 38, at end insert—
‘( ) For the purposes of subsection (5) it is immaterial whether P is also acting in any capacity other than as a family member or friend.’.
No. 26, in page 4, line 7, at end insert—
‘( ) The Secretary of State may by order provide that in specified circumstances a person who makes, or authorises the making of, arrangements (of any description) for another to engage in regulated activity either is or is not a regulated activity provider.’. — [Mr. Dhanda.]
Amendment made: No. 27, in page 4, line 18, after ‘fine’ insert ‘not exceeding the statutory maximum’.— [Mr. Dhanda.]
Amendment proposed: No. 201, in page 4, line 21, at end add
‘or did not intend to seek to engage in activity from which he knew he was barred.’.— [Tim Loughton.]
Question put, That the amendment be made:—
The House divided: Ayes 185, Noes 274.
AYES
Afriyie, Adam
Ainsworth, Mr. Peter
Alexander, Danny
Amess, Mr. David
Arbuthnot, rh Mr. James
Atkinson, Mr. Peter
Bacon, Mr. Richard
Baron, Mr. John
Barrett, John
Bellingham, Mr. Henry
Benyon, Mr. Richard
Bercow, John
Beresford, Sir Paul
Binley, Mr. Brian
Blunt, Mr. Crispin
Bone, Mr. Peter
Boswell, Mr. Tim
Brady, Mr. Graham
Brazier, Mr. Julian
Breed, Mr. Colin
Brokenshire, James
Brooke, Annette
Browne, Mr. Jeremy
Browning, Angela
Burns, Mr. Simon
Burstow, Mr. Paul
Burt, Alistair
Burt, Lorely
Butterfill, Sir John
Carswell, Mr. Douglas
Cash, Mr. William
Clappison, Mr. James
Clark, Greg
Clegg, Mr. Nick
Clifton-Brown, Mr. Geoffrey
Cormack, Sir Patrick
Cox, Mr. Geoffrey
Davey, Mr. Edward
Davies, Philip
Djanogly, Mr. Jonathan
Dorries, Mrs. Nadine
Duddridge, James
Duncan Smith, rh Mr. Iain
Dunne, Mr. Philip
Ellwood, Mr. Tobias
Evennett, Mr. David
Fallon, Mr. Michael
Farron, Tim
Featherstone, Lynne
Field, Mr. Mark
Fox, Dr. Liam
Fraser, Mr. Christopher
Gale, Mr. Roger
Garnier, Mr. Edward
Gauke, Mr. David
George, Andrew
Gibb, Mr. Nick
Goldsworthy, Julia
Goodman, Mr. Paul
Goodwill, Mr. Robert
Gove, Michael
Gray, Mr. James
Greening, Justine
Greenway, Mr. John
Gummer, rh Mr. John
Hammond, Mr. Philip
Hammond, Stephen
Hancock, Mr. Mike
Hands, Mr. Greg
Harper, Mr. Mark
Harvey, Nick
Hayes, Mr. John
Heath, Mr. David
Heathcoat-Amory, rh Mr. David
Hemming, John
Hendry, Charles
Herbert, Nick
Hoban, Mr. Mark
Hollobone, Mr. Philip
Holloway, Mr. Adam
Holmes, Paul
Horwood, Martin
Howard, rh Mr. Michael
Howarth, Mr. Gerald
Hughes, Simon
Huhne, Chris
Hunt, Mr. Jeremy
Hunter, Mark
Hurd, Mr. Nick
Jack, rh Mr. Michael
Jackson, Mr. Stewart
Johnson, Mr. Boris
Jones, Mr. David
Key, Robert
Knight, rh Mr. Greg
Lait, Mrs. Jacqui
Lancaster, Mr. Mark
Laws, Mr. David
Leech, Mr. John
Leigh, Mr. Edward
Letwin, rh Mr. Oliver
Lewis, Dr. Julian
Liddell-Grainger, Mr. Ian
Lidington, Mr. David
Lilley, rh Mr. Peter
Loughton, Tim
Luff, Peter
Mackay, rh Mr. Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Main, Anne
Malins, Mr. Humfrey
Maples, Mr. John
May, rh Mrs. Theresa
McIntosh, Miss Anne
McLoughlin, rh Mr. Patrick
Mercer, Patrick
Miller, Mrs. Maria
Mitchell, Mr. Andrew
Moore, Mr. Michael
Moss, Mr. Malcolm
Mulholland, Greg
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Neill, Robert
Newmark, Mr. Brooks
Osborne, Mr. George
Ottaway, Richard
Paice, Mr. James
Paterson, Mr. Owen
Pelling, Mr. Andrew
Penning, Mike
Penrose, John
Pickles, Mr. Eric
Price, Adam
Pritchard, Mark
Pugh, Dr. John
Randall, Mr. John
Redwood, rh Mr. John
Rennie, Willie
Robathan, Mr. Andrew
Robertson, Hugh
Robertson, Mr. Laurence
Rogerson, Mr. Dan
Rosindell, Andrew
Ruffley, Mr. David
Russell, Bob
Sanders, Mr. Adrian
Scott, Mr. Lee
Shapps, Grant
Simmonds, Mark
Simpson, Mr. Keith
Soames, Mr. Nicholas
Spicer, Sir Michael
Spink, Bob
Spring, Mr. Richard
Stanley, rh Sir John
Steen, Mr. Anthony
Streeter, Mr. Gary
Stuart, Mr. Graham
Stunell, Andrew
Swayne, Mr. Desmond
Swinson, Jo
Taylor, Matthew
Teather, Sarah
Turner, Mr. Andrew
Tyrie, Mr. Andrew
Vaizey, Mr. Edward
Vara, Mr. Shailesh
Viggers, Peter
Villiers, Mrs. Theresa
Walker, Mr. Charles
Waterson, Mr. Nigel
Webb, Steve
Whittingdale, Mr. John
Widdecombe, rh Miss Ann
Wiggin, Bill
Williams, Mark
Williams, Mr. Roger
Williams, Stephen
Willis, Mr. Phil
Willott, Jenny
Wilshire, Mr. David
Winterton, Ann
Wright, Jeremy
Young, rh Sir George
Younger-Ross, Richard
Tellers for the Ayes:
Michael Fabricant and
Angela Watkinson
NOES
Ainger, Nick
Ainsworth, rh Mr. Bob
Alexander, rh Mr. Douglas
Allen, Mr. Graham
Anderson, Mr. David
Armstrong, rh Hilary
Atkins, Charlotte
Austin, Mr. Ian
Bailey, Mr. Adrian
Baird, Vera
Balls, Ed
Banks, Gordon
Barron, rh Mr. Kevin
Battle, rh John
Begg, Miss Anne
Benn, rh Hilary
Berry, Roger
Betts, Mr. Clive
Blackman, Liz
Blackman-Woods, Dr. Roberta
Blears, rh Hazel
Blizzard, Mr. Bob
Borrow, Mr. David S.
Brown, Lyn
Brown, Mr. Russell
Bryant, Chris
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy
Butler, Ms Dawn
Byers, rh Mr. Stephen
Byrne, Mr. Liam
Caborn, rh Mr. Richard
Campbell, Mr. Alan
Campbell, Mr. Ronnie
Caton, Mr. Martin
Challen, Colin
Chapman, Ben
Chaytor, Mr. David
Clapham, Mr. Michael
Clark, Ms Katy
Clark, Paul
Clarke, rh Mr. Charles
Clarke, rh Mr. Tom
Clelland, Mr. David
Coaker, Mr. Vernon
Coffey, Ann
Cohen, Harry
Connarty, Michael
Cooper, Rosie
Cooper, Yvette
Corbyn, Jeremy
Cousins, Jim
Crausby, Mr. David
Creagh, Mary
Cruddas, Jon
Cryer, Mrs. Ann
Cummings, John
Cunningham, Mr. Jim
Cunningham, Tony
Curtis-Thomas, Mrs. Claire
Darling, rh Mr. Alistair
David, Mr. Wayne
Davidson, Mr. Ian
Davies, Mr. Dai
Dean, Mrs. Janet
Denham, rh Mr. John
Devine, Mr. Jim
Dhanda, Mr. Parmjit
Dismore, Mr. Andrew
Donohoe, Mr. Brian H.
Doran, Mr. Frank
Drew, Mr. David
Eagle, Angela
Efford, Clive
Ellman, Mrs. Louise
Engel, Natascha
Etherington, Bill
Field, rh Mr. Frank
Fisher, Mark
Flello, Mr. Robert
Flint, Caroline
Foster, Mr. Michael (Worcester)
Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings and Rye)
Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike
Gardiner, Barry
George, rh Mr. Bruce
Gerrard, Mr. Neil
Gibson, Dr. Ian
Gilroy, Linda
Goodman, Helen
Griffith, Nia
Griffiths, Nigel
Grogan, Mr. John
Gwynne, Andrew
Hall, Mr. Mike
Hall, Patrick
Hamilton, Mr. David
Hamilton, Mr. Fabian
Harman, rh Ms Harriet
Harris, Mr. Tom
Healey, John
Hendrick, Mr. Mark
Hepburn, Mr. Stephen
Heppell, Mr. John
Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia
Heyes, David
Hill, rh Keith
Hodge, rh Margaret
Hoon, rh Mr. Geoffrey
Hope, Phil
Hopkins, Kelvin
Howarth, rh Mr. George
Howells, Dr. Kim
Hoyle, Mr. Lindsay
Hughes, rh Beverley
Humble, Mrs. Joan
Hutton, rh Mr. John
Iddon, Dr. Brian
Illsley, Mr. Eric
Jackson, Glenda
James, Mrs. Siân C.
Jenkins, Mr. Brian
Johnson, rh Alan
Johnson, Ms Diana R.
Jones, Helen
Jones, Mr. Kevan
Jones, Lynne
Jones, Mr. Martyn
Joyce, Mr. Eric
Kaufman, rh Sir Gerald
Keeble, Ms Sally
Keeley, Barbara
Keen, Alan
Keen, Ann
Kemp, Mr. Fraser
Kennedy, rh Jane
Khabra, Mr. Piara S.
Kidney, Mr. David
Knight, Jim
Kumar, Dr. Ashok
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen
Lammy, Mr. David
Laxton, Mr. Bob
Lazarowicz, Mark
Lepper, David
Levitt, Tom
Lewis, Mr. Ivan
Linton, Martin
Lloyd, Tony
Love, Mr. Andrew
Lucas, Ian
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John
Marris, Rob
Marsden, Mr. Gordon
Marshall, Mr. David
Marshall-Andrews, Mr. Robert
McAvoy, rh Mr. Thomas
McCabe, Steve
McCafferty, Chris
McCarthy, Kerry
McCarthy-Fry, Sarah
McDonagh, Siobhain
McDonnell, John
McFadden, Mr. Pat
McGovern, Mr. Jim
McGuire, Mrs. Anne
McIsaac, Shona
McKechin, Ann
Meacher, rh Mr. Michael
Meale, Mr. Alan
Michael, rh Alun
Miliband, Edward
Miller, Andrew
Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Moon, Mrs. Madeleine
Morden, Jessica
Morgan, Julie
Morley, Mr. Elliot
Mountford, Kali
Mullin, Mr. Chris
Munn, Meg
Murphy, Mr. Denis
Murphy, Mr. Jim
Naysmith, Dr. Doug
O'Brien, Mr. Mike
Olner, Mr. Bill
Osborne, Sandra
Owen, Albert
Palmer, Dr. Nick
Pearson, Ian
Plaskitt, Mr. James
Pound, Stephen
Prentice, Bridget
Prentice, Mr. Gordon
Primarolo, rh Dawn
Prosser, Gwyn
Purchase, Mr. Ken
Purnell, James
Rammell, Bill
Raynsford, rh Mr. Nick
Reed, Mr. Andy
Reed, Mr. Jamie
Reid, rh John
Riordan, Mrs. Linda
Robinson, Mr. Geoffrey
Rooney, Mr. Terry
Roy, Mr. Frank
Ruddock, Joan
Russell, Christine
Ryan, Joan
Salter, Martin
Seabeck, Alison
Sheridan, Jim
Simon, Mr. Siôn
Simpson, Alan
Singh, Mr. Marsha
Skinner, Mr. Dennis
Slaughter, Mr. Andrew
Smith, rh Mr. Andrew
Smith, Ms Angela C. (Sheffield, Hillsborough)
Smith, Angela E. (Basildon)
Smith, Geraldine
Smith, rh Jacqui
Smith, John
Snelgrove, Anne
Soulsby, Sir Peter
Southworth, Helen
Spellar, rh Mr. John
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis
Stewart, Ian
Stoate, Dr. Howard
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Straw, rh Mr. Jack
Stuart, Ms Gisela
Sutcliffe, Mr. Gerry
Tami, Mark
Taylor, David
Taylor, Dr. Richard
Thomas, Mr. Gareth
Thornberry, Emily
Timms, rh Mr. Stephen
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mr. Mark
Touhig, rh Mr. Don
Trickett, Jon
Truswell, Mr. Paul
Turner, Dr. Desmond
Turner, Mr. Neil
Ussher, Kitty
Vaz, rh Keith
Vis, Dr. Rudi
Waltho, Lynda
Ward, Claire
Wareing, Mr. Robert N.
Watson, Mr. Tom
Watts, Mr. Dave
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Wicks, Malcolm
Williams, rh Mr. Alan
Williams, Mrs. Betty
Winnick, Mr. David
Winterton, rh Ms Rosie
Wood, Mike
Woodward, Mr. Shaun
Woolas, Mr. Phil
Wright, Mr. Anthony
Wright, David
Wright, Mr. Iain
Wright, Dr. Tony
Wyatt, Derek
Tellers for the Noes:
Mr. Ian Cawsey and
Huw Irranca-Davies
Question accordingly negatived.
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