Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1
- 19)
TUESDAY 29 NOVEMBER 2005
MR GREG
HURST AND
MR JOHN
HIPWOOD
Q1 Chairman: Welcome, gentlemen.
Thank you very much for the evidence you have supplied. Is there
anything you want to say before we start questioning?
Mr Hurst: Very briefly, Chairman.
I have read the other submissions to the Committee and I wonder
if I can correct two points. The Trade Union Side say in their
point number seven regarding press facilities: "Precious
space is being set aside to cater for a relatively small number
of political correspondents . . .". Can I draw your attention
to the fact there are 300 Press Gallery passholders, of whom around
170 have permanent desks in the Gallery. The press cafeteria is
also open to the staff of the Official Report. There has been
no change in the numbers that I know of, certainly no decline
from ". . . a large parliamentary reporting staff" that
is referred to. Also, the Secretaries' and Assistants' Council
talk, in their submission about some of the catering facilities
being for full passholders which they say means grey passholders
only. I do not think that is correct, I think holders of lobby
passes such as mine and John's are classified as full passes.
One final point, they talk about members of the press working
from 1 Millbank, I think they mean 4 Millbank. No members of the
press work in 1 Millbank.
Q2 Mr Jones: No doubt this will get
heavily reported in tomorrow's newspapers but one of the issues
which is being put forward here is that the press cafeteria subsidy
is six times higher than other refreshment department outlets.
I am not saying that because I doubt the subsidy figures. Can
you comment in terms of whether or not the facility provided for
the press should be subsidised as other facilities are in this
place?
Mr Hurst: The view of whether
they should be subsidised is one for the House. They are subsidised,
as far as I know, in the same way that catering facilities across
the House of Commons are.
Q3 Mr Jones: No, you are six times
more expensive according to this than anywhere else.
Mr Hurst: In my submission I said
that although we appreciate very much the facilities provided
there is a problem with the food in the cafeteria. We do not blame
the staff for that. We are told by the catering department that
the kitchen equipment is at the end of its natural life and in
need of replacement. I am sure if, as planned, the kitchens are
replaced the quality of the food will improve and I hope, therefore,
my colleagues will use the facilities. I imagine revenue will
increase and the subsidy will go down.
Q4 Mr Jones: We are talking about
a major refurbishment which will cost £1½ million. Should
the organisations that are benefiting from the facilities which
are being provided not contribute to those rather than the taxpayers?
Mr Hurst: I cannot see how that
can be done other than by raising the prices substantially of
the press area. I do not know if that is what you have in mind?
I point out to you that they are not exclusively used by the press
but by staff of the House, members of the Official Report.
Mr Hipwood: The problem, Mr Jones,
is we have got this chicken and egg situation with the Press Gallery
cafeteria whereby members do not patronise it as much as they
might do because of the food on offer there. It has nothing to
do with the efforts of the staff, which we commend at all times.
I am sure, as Greg says, the numbers of Press Gallery members
who use the cafeteria would rise if the facilities improve. I
am not aware of the figures you have given of the level of subsidy.
Q5 Mr Jones: I am not saying that
I agree with them.
Mr Hipwood: I am sure the level
of subsidy would reduce if we could get that extra number of people
into the cafeteria which would follow the refurbishment.
Q6 Mr Jones: I appreciate that is
a comment you raise in other parts as well. Can you give us some
examples of what the real problems are and why people are not
using it? Is it choice or quality?
Mr Hurst: In previous discussions
the catering department said to us that when the food is served
under hot lights on the counters that it is of good quality, and
I have no reason to doubt that. The time it stays under the lights
means the quality of the food can deteriorate before enough servings
have been made to replace it with a fresh plate. That is the analysis
and I think that sounds right to me.
Q7 Mr Jones: What about choice in
terms of menus and what is on offer? One thing that we noticed
on our tour of the Refreshment Department was there is a big difference
between certain facilities and, as you say, the way food is presented,
also choice, different menus are offered that do make certain
facilities more popular than others.
Mr Hipwood: The choice on offer
to members of the Press Gallery and the Hansard staff is reflected
by kitchen facilities behind the scenes. The staff provide what
they can for us. It tends to be what might be called traditional
dishes. We have usually got chips on offer. We have maybe one
pasta dish, one vegetarian dish and a main course, and always
a soup. It does not go beyond that really. There is a fresh salad
bar as well. I am sure the choice is restricted by what goes on
10 yards behind. I have never been into the kitchen, I should
have done probably, but I am sure that is what causes the restriction,
the size of the kitchen.
Q8 Mr Gerrard: You mentioned the
comment from the Union side about numbers. Obviously they feel
that they would like to see the facilities in the Press Gallery
opened up to more passholders. Would you have a problem with that?
Do you think if the kitchens were improved it would be full anyway?
Mr Hipwood: We have discussed
this at great length. There are disparate views amongst members
of the Press Gallery, as you can well imagine. I believe that
we should have perhaps an experimental period where other passholders
are allowed into the Press Gallery cafeteria to see if we can
boost numbers. The dining room is another issue which perhaps
we can talk about in a minute. Whether or not other members of
staff from around the Estate would want to come into the Press
cafeteria in light of the current conditions is another matter
but certainly, as officers, we do not object to that idea.
Mr Hurst: The press cafeteria
is small. There are 58 seats and I am told one table is broken
and we have got 56 at the moment. Clearly the capacity is not
there for very large numbers of passholders from elsewhere in
the Palace to start coming in on a regular basis. There is another
sensitivity which is that within the Press Gallery as a whole
there is a issue of confidentiality. For example, in the lower
Press Gallery there are copies of embargoed reports, sometimes
from committees of the House, sometimes advanced reports from
other sources are in circulation in the Gallery. There is a worry
among some members of the Gallery that if other passholders are
allowed into the press premises generally then there could be
a difficulty with other passholders having access to some of the
confidential material we have. If we can be assured that only
passholders would use the press cafeteria, and that facility only,
then I think that would be addressed. As John says, we would welcome
them. I have not been asked in any other context before by any
other group representing passholders for access to the cafeteria.
I have read their evidence talking about queuing elsewhere in
Palace facilities. If they want to come into the press cafeteria,
yes, we can try it out for an experimental period and see if it
works if we do not get too many people coming into this small
facility to mean it cannot cope with the numbers.
Mr Hipwood: Strangely enough,
and perhaps not surprisingly, queues do form too in the Press
Gallery cafeteria, usually at the obvious times: 12.45, 1.00,
1.15. Any additional staff coming in would find that they would
have to queue too.
Q9 Mr Gerrard: Forgive my ignorance:
are the facilities open during the recess and, if so, what are
the hours?
Mr Hurst: No, they are not. The
Parliamentary Press Gallery, in my view, is one of the most intensively
used areas of the Palace. It is a permanent office accommodation
of about 170 journalists and that is during recesses as well.
During recesses these have always been closed. As I said in my
submission to the Committee, if the works planned by the House
are undertaken and we have new kitchens installed in the Gallery,
I would like the Committee to consider opening some of our facilities
during recesses, and I mean by that the cafeteria and the bar
because journalists remain at work in the Press Gallery.
Mr Hipwood: During recesses we
do what everybody else does and we go down to the Terrace and
to Portcullis to eat and drink.
Mr Gerrard: That is another reason they
get overcrowded.
Q10 David Lepper: Mr Hipwood, you
made a distinction between the cafeteria and the dining room,
you have not mentioned the bar. While we are pursuing this idea
about access to other categories of users of the Palace, what
is your view about use of the dining room and the bar?
Mr Hipwood: I think there would
be great resistance amongst members of the Press Gallery to open
up the bar to anyone who is not invited in by a member of the
Press Gallery or indeed, of course, to Members of the House. That
is an area where private conversations, conversations sometimes
on a lobby basis take place on a regular basis. The same can be
said too for the dining room which is the only place where members
of the Press Gallery can book a table for themselves, invite in
MPs or Whitehall press officers, indeed anyone from outside. A
lot of entertaining of MPs goes on in there. Unless it was for
specific occasions, perhaps for officers of the House who want
to use it for business purposes, I think we would have difficulty
with that.
Mr Hurst: There is not a request
in the submission for access to the bar.
Q11 David Lepper: No.
Mr Hurst: With regard to the dining
room, if it was opened up to other passholders, I think it would
put the press dining room out of sync with the dining rights elsewhere
in the Palace. I believe there are restrictions on access to dining
rooms for other passholders. What John referred to with regard
to certain officers from the House is I am told the catering department
is looking at allowing certain senior staff, who are not classified
as officers, to be able to book dining facilities in order to
entertain in a business capacity. If the Committee wished it,
we would be happy to extend the invitation. That sort of entertaining
could be done in the press dining room and it would be approved
dining by staff of the House.
Q12 David Lepper: Can I ask about
the Press Gallery use of Annie's Bar: is it increasing, decreasing,
or static? Is it a useful place to have from your point of view?
Mr Hipwood: From our point of
view, there are members of the Press Gallery who regularly use
Annie's Bar; there are not enough of them. Various efforts have
been made by the staff in Annie's and, indeed, by the former chairman
of the Catering Committee to boost numbers. It is not the most
attractive bar in the House of Commons. The Press Gallery members'
attendance there reflects that, and no more than that. Annie's
when it was on its former site, closer to the Terrace cafeteria,
was very well-used by members of the Press Gallery.
Q13 Mr McLoughlin: 300 journalists
accredited by the Serjeant at Arms, what do they report because
I do not see very much in the papers?
Mr Hurst: I am not an editor so
I cannot answer for any journalists other than myself. Just as
Members of Parliament do not usefully spend all their working
day in the Chamber of the House of Commons, fewer parliamentary
journalists spend their time in the reporters' gallery. They may
well spend their time in select committee hearings, reporting
other parliamentary business or having conversations with Members
of the House, Members of the government, Members of either House.
Q14 Mr McLoughlin: That is a very
good answer. I will remember it when we are asked the same question.
Mr Hipwood: Mr McLoughlin, as
a member of the regional press—I am not sure what your local
regional newspaper is, probably the Derby Evening Telegraph—the
regional press steadfastly and regularly report what is said in
the House of Commons Chamber and will continue to do that.
Q15 Mr McLoughlin: One of the points
you make in your submission to us is the dining room is the only
place where journalists can book a table in their own right. Would
it be of help if you were allowed to book a table elsewhere?
Mr Hurst: If an offer was made
in addition to having our press dining room, clearly we would
welcome that. If any attempt was made to make an offer instead
of having a press dining room, we would resist it very strongly
because the House can make a rule but can take a rule or a privilege
away. We would be very loathe to give up our press dining room
under any circumstances.
Q16 Mr McLoughlin: We are talking
about the refurbishment of the kitchens which is going to cost
a considerable amount of money. If there is not the utilisation
of the facilities, and yet we have got other areas in the Palace
where perhaps we are concerned about the utilisation and the use
of those services, it does seem odd to be spending more money
giving more possible locations for dining when we are not making
great utilisation of places we have got already where we have
spent a huge amount of money on refurbishing kitchens.
Mr Hurst: Of course all these
works are not at our request, they are initiatives of the House.
Q17 Mr McLoughlin: You said about
the quality of the food and if you get better kitchens you will
get better use.
Mr Hurst: I acknowledge that.
Can I make two points. Firstly, we do not call the shots here,
Members of Parliament do. For example, the Chamber's sitting hours,
which were agreed by Members of the House had a big impact on
the dining trends in our dining room, as it did, I gather, in
a lot of the dining facilities across the House of Commons. Although
you have reversed that on Tuesday evenings, once people get into
a certain habit it takes a while to alter that. Secondly, earlier
you were asking about the focus of the parliamentary and political
reporting, when parliamentary debates are clearly of interest
to our readers and newsworthy the Press Gallery just fills up.
We are not in control of the business. I remember on the night
of the debate and final vote on the Iraq war in March 2003, the
Press Gallery was absolutely heaving, the press dining room was
so full that every seat was taken and journalists stayed around
until the final vote was taken and then a long time after that
to report it. If Parliament puts on business that is newsworthy
we will be there. News is a very competitive business and journalism
follows the news.
Mr Hipwood: More recently with
the 90-day vote then the Gallery was absolutely packed on that
day, albeit slightly earlier in the day. That reflected too the
fact journalists are there and they are working not always, as
you say, in the Reporters' Gallery but they are there. They will
staff it if the business is there to interest people outside.
We are only reflecting what people outside are prepared to read
in the long run.
Q18 Mr McLoughlin: Out of the 300
journalists, how does that break down between TV and newspapers?
Have you got any figures on that?
Mr Hipwood: I have not got those
figures, I do not know whether Greg has to hand. I would say it
would be something like two-thirds writing journalists and one-third
broadcasting. That is purely a guess. It may be three-quarters
to a quarter. We could get those figures for you.
Q19 Mr Ainsworth: Forgive me, I know
little or nothing about the area of the Press Gallery and that
gives me both advantages and disadvantages I suppose. Other than
history and customary practice, what is the reason for maintaining
any refreshment facilities up there at all?
Mr Hurst: In a parliamentary democracy
I hope you accept that a free press is central to the process.
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