Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20
- 39)
TUESDAY 29 NOVEMBER 2005
MR GREG
HURST AND
MR JOHN
HIPWOOD
Q20 Mr Ainsworth: I am not suggesting
there be no facilities for the press but separate dining room,
refreshment facilities, specifically to serve the Press Gallery.
What is the reason and the justification for that?
Mr Hurst: The siting of the cafeteria,
for instance, reflects the fact that you have a large number of
passholders both of the Parliamentary Press Gallery and the Official
Report in one part of the Palace. When parliamentary business
requires then reporters from the Press Gallery and from Hansard
are there reporting the business of Parliament. A lot of entertaining
takes place in the dining room and members of the press are not
allowed to book a table in any other dining room in the Palace
under their names.
Q21 Mr Ainsworth: What is the pattern
of use of the people who the Press Gallery is there for? I know
there are 300 passes, for instance the Coventry Evening Telegraph
has got one of those and the reporter manages to get down when
her editor lets her, which is not very often. How many people
are spending a prolonged period of the day up there?
Mr Hurst: As I say in the submission,
of the 300 passholders some have permanent places of work elsewhere.
The Coventry Evening Telegraph, I do not think they have
a permanent desk in the Gallery, presumably they would come and
go as parliamentary business needs them.
Q22 Mr Ainsworth: How many—
Mr Hurst: Of those 300, 170 are
based in the Press Gallery. They would work there as their permanent
place of work. Their working day would be spent in the Gallery.
Q23 Mr Ainsworth: Would it be better
from your point of view, as well as democracy's point of view,
if you got out and mixed a bit?
Mr Hurst: The places we want to
get out and mix are in the Members' Lobby, the Committee Corridor,
the Reporters' Gallery and in the precincts of the House of Commons.
We do not want to go elsewhere, we are parliamentary and political
reporters.
Q24 Mr Ainsworth: What is the matter
with you going out in your lunch hour and reporting from this
House for instance? You might talk to some non-journalists and
get another view.
Mr Hurst: As full passholders
we are entitled to have lunch in Portcullis House, some of my
colleagues do. I very much value that for precisely the reason
you say. The advantage for the press, and I suggest to Members
of Parliament too, of our being in the Estate is that all the
time I bump into Members of Parliament and informal discussions
and relations are maintained. That is a very important part of
our role. It is a fundamental mutual benefit to Members of Parliament
and journalists.
Mr Hipwood: If it is of any help
to Mr Ainsworth, and any other Member of the Committee, I am happy
at any time to conduct a tour of the Press Gallery for any Member
of the Committee at any time of your choosing to show how many
journalists are working there.
Q25 Mr Ainsworth: We have received
some figures from the catering department that show the usage
of the Press Gallery cafeteria. The figures are not very high
at any point in the week.
Mr Hipwood: The figures for the
cafeteria we accept are poor.
Q26 Mr Ainsworth: They do not go
into double figures at breakfast time. They rarely climb above
20 at any time.
Mr Hipwood: The cafeteria is a
difficulty, I have accepted that. The figures for the bar probably
show the bar is one of the busiest in the whole of the Estate.
The dining room figures are good, they could be better.
Mr Hurst: I do not doubt the figures
at all. I am told the mean average covers of the cafeteria—which
is the phrase I have got here—on a typical Wednesday, for
example, is 240 servings. Wednesday is the busiest day, as you
would expect, with Prime Minister's Questions. On a Thursday it
is 221, on a Tuesday 215, this is total servings. I would not
agree with John saying they are poor, they are not as high as
we would like. That is one of the reasons why, in answer
to Mr Gerrard's question, if other passholders want to come in
we are happy to try that and see if it increases.
Mr Hipwood: It is not just covers,
it is all from the same counter. We get drinks on a regular basis,
soft drinks, hot beverages, sandwiches are all picked up from
the same area. It is not just people who sit down to have lunch
or breakfast, a lot of people grab some food and a drink, and
take it back to their desks.
Q27 Pete Wishart: My point is roughly
the same as Bob's, I am curious that of all the passholders to
the Palace of Westminster it is only journalists who have their
own space within the House. I am interested in your views, also,
on Annie's Bar. I have been in there a few times recently and
it only ever seems to be busy when there is an important game
on in the pool tournament, other than that the place is absolutely
deserted. I do not know if you agree with me but in terms of people
staying in the Palace itself there are much better uses for that
room. Dry cleaning is suggested here, I would not go along with
that but a really good coffee bar of the quality and standard
we see in Portcullis House based in the Palace would be a far
better use of that bar.
Mr Hipwood: Annie's Bar does not
come under the Press Gallery's jurisdiction as far as I am aware.
We share that facility with Members of the House and it is the
only bar, as far as I am aware, where members of the Parliamentary
Lobby Journalists and Members of the House have equal standing
in terms of ordering drinks. I do not think it comes necessarily
under the Press Gallery jurisdiction, you may correct me on that.
Q28 Pete Wishart: I accept that,
you are absolutely correct. I am asking your view about whether,
with its continuing decline in use, perhaps a better use for it
now would be something like a high quality coffee bar? There are
plenty of other opportunities for the press because you are not
using that space to meet Members of Parliament and other officers
of the House. Is it necessary to have that use for Annie's Bar
or as a Committee should we look for a new use for Annie's Bar?
Mr Hurst: This may sound a pedantic
point but John and I are here representing the Parliamentary Press
Gallery and Annie's is shared between Members of Parliament and
members of the lobby. There is a separate organisation representing
lobby journalists and I do not think I should be commenting on
behalf of the lobby. The only thing I will say is if you depart
from a nice room with windows into a place within the internal
bowels of the Palace with no windows and fewer people go in there,
is that a surprise.
Q29 John Thurso: In your submission
you talked about the quality of food in the cafeteria and accept
that this is probably largely to do with the design and age of
the facilities producing it. What thought, if any, have you given
to what might replace that? Obviously the design of the future
new facility will have an impact on what could be served and therefore
what you might want to see served will conversely have an impact
on the design. Subsidiary to that, what steps have you taken to
consult with your members as to what they want?
Mr Hurst: We have been involved
in detailed talks with the refreshment department and with the
Estates Department about this works' programme. They are not concluded
at the moment, consultants have been appointed for the catering
side and they are working on it now. We would express a view but
we will listen to professional advice and will not try and dictate
what terms are. Professional advice, both from the catering department
and from consultants, would be more likely to get an effective
outcome. Certainly I am very open to new ideas which might increase
the custom from among my colleagues in the Press Gallery and make
them more willing to dine in there. We are open-minded about what
sort of facility could be provided in conjunction with the new
kitchen. It would not be in the same place incidentally. Under
the current plans, which are not approved by the House yet, they
are under consultation, the site of the Press Gallery cafeteria
would move. That is in order to meet requests from the House of
Commons that our working accommodation meets Health and Safety
standards. All the way through we have tried to show flexibility,
listen to professional advice and not be obstructive to sensible
proposals.
Q30 John Thurso: My point is if you
can say what it is that they would most like to eat that is a
key part of what is designed.
Mr Hurst: You are quite right.
We have not quite got to that stage. In fairness, the catering
staff have tried different menus and some of them have been successful.
Staff move around in the Palace and they have done their best
within the limits of the equipment they have.
Mr Hipwood: When we have had themed
days in the past under Terry Wiggins who has now moved on, they
have been very successful. They have boosted the numbers in the
Press Gallery. It takes a bit of imagination and often in the
Press Gallery, unfortunately, that imagination may be stifled
by the facilities. It is back to the issue I was discussing with
Mr Gerrard and Mr Jones earlier, the staff are restricted by what
they can present to us at the moment. I am sure, again, we could
easily organise a consultation amongst members—we have not
done that—about what they would like to see on a future
menu which is not there now.
Q31 Mr Jones: We have a cafeteria
which, according to the figures, is six times higher in subsidy
than anywhere else. We have got the potential of spending £1.5
million on refurbishing it. What would your response be to the
nuclear option of abolishing it altogether and improving the facilities
elsewhere in order that your members could use a facility jointly
with others?
Mr Hurst: When you said six times,
do you mean the restaurant or do you mean the cafeteria?
Q32 Mr Jones: The cafeteria.
Mr Hurst: That is not the restaurant,
they are different facilities. I do not think the subsidy on the
dining room restaurant is that high. In answer to your question,
we would resist that very vigorously.
Mr Ainsworth: Why?
Q33 Mr Donohoe: Why?
Mr Hurst: Because with regard
to our dining rights in particular—
Q34 Mr Jones: Dining rights, what
are they?
Mr Hurst: When I say dining rights,
the ability to book a table in the press dining room. The right
to book a table. In reference to Mr McLoughlin's question earlier,
if the House was to let us book a table in one of the other restaurants—
Q35 Mr Jones: That is what I am suggesting.
Mr Hurst: What would be to stop
a future committee removing that and then we would not be able
to dine anywhere in the Palace. The House itself can make whatever
rules it chooses.
Mr Hipwood: We have not mentioned,
as yet, the banqueting which we do on a regular basis in the dining
room which attracts between 80 and 100 Members.
Q36 Mr Jones: What if we abolished
the cafeteria altogether and improved the facilities elsewhere
in the building? Clearly a lot of your members are speaking with
their feet and walking over to Portcullis and other places?
Mr Hurst: Some of them are.
Q37 Mr Jones: Quite a few.
Mr Hurst: I think it would be
a very good idea, as John suggested, for some Members of the Committee
to come and have a look at our facilities. The press cafeteria
is very near the Reporters' Gallery, often I will pop in there,
as will other of my colleagues, when I am about to go and cover
a debate. You will see reporters in there having a very quick
bite to eat between Prime Minister's Questions and the main debate
starting when there is a Ten Minute Rule Bill. You cannot do that
if you have to go elsewhere in the House to get something to eat.
We do not control the business and our purpose of being there
is to follow parliamentary debates in many cases.
Q38 Mr Jones: I appreciate that.
Mr Hurst: Having facilities on
the premises means often people will leave their meal as soon
as the annunciator screen shows a debate starting and run down
to the Reporters' Gallery. We are not able to do that elsewhere
in the House.
Q39 Mr Jones: I appreciate there
is a difference between having a hot meal and having a snack,
would it not be in order to provide some vending machines as well
if people want a quick snack?
Mr Hurst: When I say a meal, it
could be a counter served hot meal which a vending machine could
not supply. It is served from the counter relatively quickly.
Mr Jones: I have difficulty in the House
spending £1½ million improving kitchen facilities when
we have no guarantees that there is going to be increased usage.
It is public money after all. It is something we do need to look
at.
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