Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60
- 79)
TUESDAY 29 NOVEMBER 2005
DR CHRIS
POND OBE, MS
ANNE FOSTER,
MR PETER
VINES, MR
RUSSELL CARTWRIGHT
AND MR
ANDREW TUGGEY
Q60 Mr Donohoe: Can I ask whether
you think in the modern world that we live in it is justified
that there is such a thing as a subsidy?
Dr Pond: It is justified, yes,
because as the Deputy Leader of the House said in the debate in
Westminster Hall on 3 November many of the staff who are not over-generously
paid have to be here for long and unsocial hours and the need
to eat economically and conveniently is there.
Q61 Mr Donohoe: In terms of passholders,
how many guests are staff able to bring in to any of the facilities,
if any?
Dr Pond: I think it is an absolute
maximum of three. There are restrictions on what facilities one
can use as well, particularly at peak times. You will have to
put that question to the management because the rules are quite
complex.
Q62 Mr Donohoe: In terms of usage,
you do not have any idea as to how the passholders themselves
in your category are using these facilities and on what basis?
Mr Vines: I do have various reports
with the matter in. We are not allowed guests in the Terrace cafeteria.
We are allowed guests at certain times in Portcullis House but
not between 12.30 and 2.00 pm.
Q63 Mr Donohoe: Is that on the basis
of the busiest periods?
Mr Vines: Yes.
Q64 Mr Donohoe: You are restricted
during the busiest periods?
Mr Vines: Yes.
Q65 Mr Donohoe: Even without that
factor, there are occasions when if you go into Portcullis House
you are standing in a queue almost 100 yards long. Is it not the
case that is a well-used facility in the House?
Mr Vines: It certainly is, yes.
Also, in other periods, we are requested at different times to
look after/entertain for a few minutes or whatever guests of Members,
people who come to visit Members. We take them downstairs to have
a cup of coffee if there is a division, such as there has just
been, we sit with them to make sure they are looked after, which
may mean a sandwich at lunchtime if the meeting is long. There
are Members who take guests who we accompany as well into the
general cafeterias.
Q66 Mr Donohoe: If we make a recommendation
to close the facilities that the press have at present, what would
be the impact, if any, on the rest of the facilities? Would you
be in opposition or in support of that, if that was to be a recommendation?
Dr Pond: Certainly from the Trade
Union Side, we would be in favour of it.
Q67 Mr Donohoe: You would be in favour?
Dr Pond: We would be in favour
of opening the press facilities.
Q68 Mr Donohoe: I am not talking
about that, I am talking about the idea of closing them completely?
Dr Pond: Altogether?
Q69 Mr Donohoe: Yes.
Dr Pond: The difficulty there
would be that it would exacerbate the overcrowding. At the moment
we cannot cope with the overcrowding in the cafeterias in the
Palace at all. If we have an additional couple of hundred people
it would be almost impossible.
Q70 Mr Donohoe: If the upgrading
of the cafeteria in the press gallery goes ahead would you ask
that you be allowed access to that as a right?
Dr Pond: Yes, Chairman, as we
did the last time we gave evidence to your predecessor committee.
Mr Vines: In 2001-02.
Q71 Mr Donohoe: Would that make a
great deal of difference given the facilities that are there are
restricted to something like 50 places?
Mr Vines: It would be an alternative
venue to use. It would depend, also, on the quality of food that
is served there as well which is the nub of the problem. If you
closed it completely, and you have those who normally have designated
press passes then using all the facilities in the House of Commons
on the cafeteria side, there would be a degree of resentment because
there are other outlets they have which are subsidised. They have
other places of work, such as the television base on Millbank—we
have mentioned this in the evidence—and they have other
places to eat, whereas we do not, from their employers.
Q72 Mr Donohoe: Am I correct in thinking
that as passholders you have the right of access to, say, the
cafeteria in the House of Lords?
Mr Vines: Yes.
Q73 Mr Donohoe: That is something
else you have as a facility?
Dr Pond: We do but the quid
pro quo is that the House of Lords' staff have access to our
cafeterias. I think probably the traffic is greater in that direction
than in ours going into the Lords' facilities which are very small.
Mr Vines: It is a question, also,
of planning in a sense. I think most of us have lunch for 35 to
40 minutes. It is a good five minute walk, and if you are in Norman
Shaw North it is a 10 minute walk, to the far end which is why
members of staff do not go to 7 Millbank and use the facilities
there, it is too far to go out of your time which you have for
lunch. That is why everything north of Bridge Street, which is
where most of the offices are, is most heavily used certainly
by members of staff and by others as well.
Dr Pond: Quite a proportion of
the Commons' staff are rostered to take lunch at a particular
time in order to maintain service. We do not have the option,
unfortunately, of going at 11.30 or 2 o'clock or whenever the
facilities are less crowded. I do not entirely agree with the
SAAC that quality is the nub of the matter. I think overcrowding
is probably the very nub of the matter.
Q74 Mr Gerrard: There are a couple
of things mentioned in the submission of the Trade Union Side
which are relevant to overcrowding. First of all, facilities in
Norman Shaw buildings, there are vending machines but nothing
else. Secondly, use in Bellamy's of what used to be the coffee
lounge. Would you comment on those?
Ms Foster: We have had comments
from Members that the Members' Clubroom would be a great place
for people to go and have coffee after eating in Bellamy's and
the cafeteria, and that would reduce the overcrowding that you
have at lunchtimes.
Q75 Mr Gerrard: How much underused
is it from your observations? Does it get any use?
Mr Vines: It gets a little use.
Dr Pond: I would answer that either
with the adjectives "substantially" or "grossly"
but I am not sure which is appropriate. It is certainly under
used.
Q76 Mr Gerrard: What about Norman
Shaw, what would you need in there to attract people to stay in
there rather than going to Bellamy's or to Portcullis?
Mr Vines: I do not think you will
be able to do that because there is a certain element of isolation,
to be honest, in the Norman Shaw buildings. People do like to
come over to meet at lunchtime, maybe for a short time but they
do get out and meet, which has been the great attraction of the
atrium in Portcullis House. It has been a great draw. If there
were some sandwich facilities over there, that might relieve some
of the pressure. I do not suppose you have enough money or space
to put in a full dining area. Can I come back to the question
you raised about the club room? At lunchtime today I did meet
with some Members specifically there to discuss the submissions
going in today for this meeting. Certainly we looked into the
clubroom and saw about three people there and we noted there were
four or five Members of Parliament eating with us in Bellamy's
itself. We do feel an alternative use could be found we would
hope to relieve the pressure that is in Bellamy's. It could be
for coffee or ready made sandwiches plus coffee but in some way
which would improve the flow of people out of Bellamy's cafeteria
once they have eaten.
Dr Pond: I can say that over the
years we checked the number of people eating in the clubroom and
very often it is in single figures at lunchtime. Management will
give you the most up-to-date information but it is under used.
Q77 Mr Gerrard: Mr Tuggey, you talked
about some issues with regard to quality, what about access and
booking facilities, is that a problem? How much are you reliant
on individual Members?
Mr Tuggey: We can book our own
facilities. We do not have a problem, generally. One of the areas,
which perhaps I should have mentioned earlier, is the Terrace
restaurant that is open after the Whitsun break is a great boom
to us. It is extremely flexible. If we have people who are vegetarian,
there is lots of choice and there is no great time constraint
because you can get up and eat and move around. In terms of entertaining
it is very useful. The only problem is it is open for such a short
time. It would be very useful, as far as we are concerned, if
it was open from the week after the Easter break. It would make
life much more flexible for us. We have certain events that go
on during the year and that would be much more useful. We do not
have any trouble booking though.
Q78 Mr Jones: You say you have no
problem booking, how often in a year would you book a dining room
for an event? Is there a set period?
Mr Tuggey: Yes, we have set periods.
There is a two-week period in March, normally from 6-17 March,
that sort of period, and then another one normally in May. Those
are the standard two-week periods. Recently we have introduced
a week in January as well, the last week in January, where we
organise a party politics seminar. Next year, depending when the
State Opening is, there will be a week in November when we book
the facilities. A total of six weeks a year when we are booking
facilities in the dining rooms.
Q79 Mr Jones: Can I come on to the
issue about how food quality is perceived. I share all your concerns
about the Churchill Room having attended a dinner there the other
night which had a set menu. A great fuss was caused when I asked
for the main course without any sauce on it which seemed to then
take another 15 minutes to produce. What is your general view,
first of all, of the quality of the food and, secondly, how it
is perceived in terms of what you get when you visit other Commonwealth
Parliaments? I am sure you do not want to put llama on the menu
which we ate or curried rat which we had in Guyana. What do other
parliaments provide which is different from us?
Mr Tuggey: By and large the quality
that we receive here compared with other parliaments throughout
the Commonwealth is pretty good, having been to many of them now.
That does not necessarily mean that it is as good as it should
be.
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