Examination of Witnesses (Questions 300-319)
RT HON
LORD FALCONER
OF THOROTON
QC AND ALEX
ALLAN
4 JULY 2006
Q300 Mr Tyrie: There must be a number
of countries where you would not accept at face value a memorandum
of understanding. For example, you would not take at face value
a memorandum of understanding from Zimbabwe at the moment, would
you?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I do
not want to comment on our foreign relations with every single
country. Ultimately, it is for the court to decide, not for me,
whether the memorandum of understanding is sufficient to give
that assurance that the deportee will be properly treated when
deported.
Q301 Mr Tyrie: Whilst we are considering
human rights, I should like to ask you briefly about Guantanamo
Bay. I take it you agree with Lord Goldsmith's view.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I do
not think it should have been opened; it should be closed.
Q302 Mr Tyrie: When did you come
to that view?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: For
me, the problem about Guantanamo Bay has always been that we are
a country that lives by the rule of law. Ultimately, to try to
put people beyond the reach of the rule of law is contrary to
the way that all of our states are organised. It now appears that
Guantanamo Bay is not beyond the reach of the rule of law because
the Supreme Court of the United States of America has said that
various provisions should apply to it. But the essential objection
to Guantanamo Bay has always been that law cannot reach it, and
that was the intention. From my point of view, it has always been
objectionable on that basis.
Q303 Mr Tyrie: Why did you not come
forward earlier?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Plainly,
from the point of view of the British Government judgments have
to be made about precisely how one deals with these issues. Jack
Straw is here. He spent a goodly period of time effectively procuring
the release of a number of people from Guantanamo Bay, and judgments
have to be made, entirely correctly in my view, about what is
the best way to achieve those sorts of ends. I am perfectly happy
as a member of the Government to be guided by the Government's
approach to these issues.
Q304 Mr Tyrie: What you appear to
be saying is that if you had come forward publicly with your condemnation
of Guantanamo Bay at an earlier stage it might have adversely
influenced the efforts to secure the release of British detainees
there. Is that correct?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: We
are a government and we form collective views about things and
how those are to be expressed.
Q305 Mr Tyrie: Did you get it right
or wrong?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Perhaps
you would put the question again.
Q306 Mr Tyrie: The question is: were
you influenced in restraining yourself in not condemning Guantanamo
Bay by the consideration put to you that it might adversely affect
your efforts to secure the release of British detainees at that
base?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I was
influenced by the fact that I was a member of a government that
sought to achieve particular aims in relation to Guantanamo Bay.
Q307 Keith Vaz: Did you see Vera
Baird's article in The Times this morning? Was it drafted
by Alex Allan or written by Vera Baird?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I am
quite clear that every single word was drafted by Vera Baird.
Alex Allan: After all, it has
her name on it.
Q308 Keith Vaz: In her article she
says: "The Lord Chancellor and I and others in government
have all been working in lockstep with Lord Carter." What
does "lockstep" mean?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: It
means that he has kept us fully informed in relation to what he
is doing and as to the state of his negotiations and thinking
in relation to the process of reforming legal aid. The reason
we have worked in lockstep is that this matter has been going
on for a considerable time. We as a government want to be able
to respond as quickly as we can to what Lord Carter says.
Q309 Keith Vaz: Why has it been so
delayed? We expected it in January and were told it would be published
in late spring.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Yes.
Q310 Keith Vaz: Do we have a date
for publication yet?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: We
expect it to be published before the recess, which means before
25 July, so very soon. The reason it has been delayed is that
Lord Carter, in co-operation with the legal profession, has been
talking in great detail about the principles of a new purchasing
system of publicly-funded legal services. We are as keen as we
possibly can be to find a way forward by which the legal professions
agree this in the interests of the consumer. It is better to have
a whole new system in which there is co-operation rather than
not. Lord Carter, the Bar Council and the Law Society have been
working extremely hard to try to get to that point. We think it
is worthwhile giving them that time, but there is now a deadline;
it must be done before the recess so we can move on.
Q311 Keith Vaz: According to Vera
Baird's article in The Times today, as part of the next
steps she will be visiting various parts of the country: "I
will visit as many towns, regions and cities that I can to discuss
the proposals." So, there will be a further period of consultation?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: There
must be consultation on the detail, but I very much hope that
Lord Carter will produce his proposals and we will as quickly
as possible—I hope almost immediately—be able to say
that we either accept them or not. What Vera is talking about
is some period of consultation. There must be three months' consultation—given
changes in the arrangements for the payment of solicitors or barristers—in
which these detailed proposals are discussed with the professions.
Q312 Keith Vaz: You already know
that there is concern about the moves to larger suppliers and
the disproportionate effect that it will have on ethnic minority
firms and firms in rural communities?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Yes.
Q313 Keith Vaz: Have you telephoned
Lord Carter or sent him a memorandum and said, "Look, these
are concerns that the Government will take seriously because they
are part of its core values"?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Yes.
Q314 Keith Vaz: "Please look
at them again"?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Not
look at them again. Take BME community solicitors or rural solicitors.
To take an example entirely at random, if one is in an obscure
part of Cumbria the more rural it is perhaps the more expensive
it is to provide legal services. His proposals need to address
this. One size will not necessarily fit all.
Q315 Keith Vaz: You seem to know
what is in the report?
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I do
not know what is in the report.
Q316 Chairman: You are in lockstep.
It is like having one's ankles tied together in a five-legged
race.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: I must
ask Vera precisely what she meant by that, but I think it means
"closely linked".
Q317 Keith Vaz: We will look forward
to Vera Baird's next letter to you explaining what she meant.
Lord Falconer of Thoroton: It
will say that important issues need to be addressed.
Q318 Keith Vaz: I have one quick
question to Alex Allan. How many civil servants have been transferred
to the new Judicial Appointments Commission?
Alex Allan: None has been transferred.
Q319 Keith Vaz: Seconded?
Alex Allan: A number have been
seconded.
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