Examination of Witnesses (Questions 20-39)
BRIAN HARVEY,
CRISPIN PASSMORE
AND AMANDA
FINLAY
14 FEBRUARY 2006
Q20 Keith Vaz: We will come to this
point, Mr Passmore, that all over the country there are happy
people who are using CLS Direct and being able to get specialist
advice in a second, but looking at the overall amount of money
the LSC spends on administration, do you know what that figure
is—how much you spent on administration last year?
Brian Harvey: Ninety-two million,
I would think.
Q21 Keith Vaz: So this is a very
small proportion of the amount that you currently spend on administration?
Brian Harvey: Yes.
Q22 Keith Vaz: You believe that by
taking this money away from the system that you yourself describe
as a success and spreading it amongst all the consumers of CLS
Direct you will be providing a better service?
Brian Harvey: By helping more
people, yes.
Q23 Keith Vaz: Have you conducted
a pilot into this? How do you know this is going to happen?
Brian Harvey: We have conducted
a pilot, which is CLS Direct, and we know from the information
that we have, which Crispin has already referred to, that it has
been very successful in meeting clients' needs, delivering high
quality advice and resolving individuals' problems.
Q24 Keith Vaz: You think that will
provide a better service to the service that is currently being
provided?
Brian Harvey: If the service is
delivered to the quality standards that we have set, yes.
Q25 Keith Vaz: Have you consulted
ministers before making this decision?
Brian Harvey: No, we advised them
of the decision that we were intending to make.
Q26 Keith Vaz: The decision is yours
and yours alone?
Brian Harvey: It is.
Q27 Keith Vaz: Because in her response
in the debate, again to Julie Morgan, Mrs Prentice said she had
concerns about what you were proposing to do. What were those
concerns?
Brian Harvey: That it was a difficult
decision for us.
Q28 Keith Vaz: You always make difficult
decisions, you are in government, you are the LSC, and so we know
it is a difficult decision. Accept that we accept that you have
to make difficult decisions. What were the concerns that Mrs Prentice
expressed to you about what you were proposing to do?
Crispin Passmore: I think you
will need to speak to the Minister to get her view on what her
concerns are, but my understanding of what was said was that there
were concerns about the fact that specialist support had been
successful and, therefore, it was a big decision to backtrack
from something that had been successful and move that money to
something else. It is right that we were questioned on that.
Q29 Keith Vaz: Did the Minister ask
you to think again about your decision. Did she say this was £2.3
million? You currently spend £1.1 million on the cost of
your commission and the Executive Board, including benefits or
extra benefits in kind, and so it is almost the same kind of level
of cuts that you are envisaging. Did she ask you to look again?
Brian Harvey: No.
Q30 Keith Vaz: She did not?
Brian Harvey: Not to my knowledge.
Q31 Keith Vaz: When she expressed
her concern, when ministers expressed their concern, did you go
back and have a look again at your evaluation, your consultation
process?
Brian Harvey: We discussed the
various issues. I was not present at the time.
Q32 Keith Vaz: Did you discuss it
with the people who were providing the service? You actually had
a meeting with those groups and individuals who provide this service,
at your offices or elsewhere, where you discussed what you were
proposing to do. You have had that discussion, have you, with
the people who have been providing this service?
Crispin Passmore: No.
Q33 Keith Vaz: Mr Harvey, you keep
looking to Mr Passmore. You are the Acting Chief Executive, are
you not?
Brian Harvey: Yes. I can deal
with the question. The consultation process, which asked people
to comment on various key questions, was the information that
was used by the executive to make their decision. The decision
was then communicated to the Minister. The Minister then asked
various questions, but supported the decision, and then we communicated
the decision to the contract holders that we were going to terminate
the contracts. Subsequently, a meeting was held with the contract
holders to discuss how we might move forward from that position.
Q34 Keith Vaz: You have never had
a discussion, I have understood that process. A lot of communications,
a lot of information has been communicated, but you have never
had a discussion with the people who have been providing this
service over the last three years before you came to your decision?
Brian Harvey: Only via the consultation
process that I referred to. Not a direct discussion, no.
Q35 Keith Vaz: You have never had
a direct discussion?
Brian Harvey: No.
Q36 Keith Vaz: You have sent them
surveys and pieces of paper and they have responded?
Brian Harvey: Yes.
Q37 Keith Vaz: Do you have the results
of that consultation with you here today?
Crispin Passmore: I have got summary
of it, yes.
Q38 Keith Vaz: Are you going to be
able to let the Committee have a copy of the consultation?
Crispin Passmore: Yes, absolutely.
Q39 Barbara Keeley: I wanted to ask
a point on this specifically. In our submission from Shelter they
say that at no point was it made clear to them that terminating
the contract was an option. They have received letters from you
but say that they did not at any point understand that terminating
the contract was an option. Do you agree with that comment? You
did not at any point make clear that you would be terminating
contracts and that is what you were consulting on.
Brian Harvey: At the time that
the request for information was given, no, it was not made clear
that that was an option.
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