Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-79)
RICHARD THOMAS,
GRAHAM SMITH
AND JANE
DURKIN
14 MARCH 2006
Q60 Keith Vaz: You can already predict,
as you have not received this money, that the backlog will grow?
Richard Thomas: We are making
certain assumptions. We have been told we are going to get something.
Q61 Keith Vaz: But will the backlog
grow because you have not received this money?
Richard Thomas: I fear absolutely,
Mr Vaz, that is a real risk. I was very pleased over a year ago
with this Committee, and if I can just read out and remind the
Committee what you said in your report because resources are critical
to this.
Q62 Keith Vaz: I am sure we can remember
what we said. I am just trying to get the timetable right here.
Even if you get the money tomorrow as a result of your splendid
performance before this Committee, this will not be enough to
clear the backlog until 2007?
Richard Thomas: If we got it tomorrow
I think we could put that into action very quickly indeed, but
the point you are making, and I am totally agreeing with you—
Q63 Keith Vaz: Every day counts?
Richard Thomas: —every day,
every week counts, and I have raised this personally with the
Lord Chancellor. I have met Lord Falconer a couple of times.
Q64 Keith Vaz: Tell us about your
meetings with the Lord Chancellor. When did you last meet him?
Richard Thomas: I do not have
the date with me, but I think it was about three weeks ago.
Q65 Keith Vaz: At his department?
Richard Thomas: At the House of
Lords.
Q66 Keith Vaz: What did you say to
the Lord Chancellor?
Richard Thomas: I said I had put
in my bid with the business case, as we call it—our bid
in a detailed business case. We sent a copy through to the Committee
yesterday, because I gather you would like to see a copy of that,
so that is with you. That was the 6 January document, and I said,
"Lord Chancellor, we need this extra resource urgently. We
need to have a decision. We are getting nods and winks from your
officials we are going to get something. I need to know how much
we are going to get."
Q67 Keith Vaz: What did he say to
you?
Richard Thomas: He said, "I
am sure my officials are doing all that they can to help you."
He has said repeatedly, "I do not want FOI to fail through
lack of resources", and I find it a very encouraging statement
that he has made.
Q68 Keith Vaz: But?
Richard Thomas: But I still await.
We are grant aided from the DCA. There are some interesting questions
there about the Scottish parallel, for example, or the Parliamentary
Ombudsman here. There, the money is voted directly from Parliament,
and that is perhaps an issue this Committee may want to give some
thought to. At the moment we are grant aided from the Department.
Q69 Keith Vaz: When you are lying
awake at night thinking about this backlog, which I am sure you
are, counting the number of cases as they jump around the field,
do you worry that perhaps there is a hidden motive in not giving
you this money?
Richard Thomas: I do not worry
in those terms, Mr Vaz, but I think there is an interesting issue
you have put your finger on there, which is I have to say I am
a little uncomfortable that the same part of the same government
department is responsible for policy on FOI, for leadership of
the clearing house and for sponsorship of my department, and I
think that there are some slightly uncomfortable questions there
about competing considerations.
Q70 Keith Vaz: Do you think there
is a conflict of interest?
Richard Thomas: I think perhaps
maybe this Committee will want to speculate about that. I would
not go so far as to say outright that there is a conflict of interest,
but I think it is an uncomfortable juxtaposition of functions.
Q71 Keith Vaz: I am with you on the
money aspect, but I am a bit worried about these consultants that
you have appointed. How much are you paying for these consultants
to tell you how to do your job?
Richard Thomas: What I should
have said is that the one slight slice of additional funding which
the Department has made available to us is £100,000 in the
current financial year.
Q72 Keith Vaz: For consultants?
Richard Thomas: Yes.
Q73 Keith Vaz: They are very fond
of consultants.
Richard Thomas: Well, they are
our consultants, we commission them, they are reporting to us.
Q74 Keith Vaz: So they have given
you £100,000?
Richard Thomas: They had £100,000
which they could spare out of the current financial year which
was made available in the last couple of months, and we have used
that to engage consultants.
Q75 Keith Vaz: To tell you what?
Richard Thomas: To look comprehensively
at our structures, our processes, our procedure, to look through
expert eyes objectively. It is an ongoing process. They are sharing
their emerging findings with me and my team, but they are not
yet in a position to make further recommendations.
Q76 Keith Vaz: And how long is the
timetable for these consultants?
Richard Thomas: They have got
to finish by the end of March.
Q77 Keith Vaz: This is an exercise
you could not have conducted with your existing staff?
Richard Thomas: My existing staff
are very focused on the day job of dealing with all our various
responsibilities, and I think it has been helpful and has been
a positive experience for us to have someone outside to look at
us with fresh, objective eyes.
Q78 Keith Vaz: What worries me us
that at the end of this process the consultants may turn round
to you and say, "Actually, you do not need £1.13 million.
Your procedures need to be changed dramatically, your structure
needs to change and you need £2 million." What are you
going to do then?
Richard Thomas: That is speculation.
What I am anticipating is that they will say, "You have made
some changes. Here are some further changes we recommend. Here
is how we recommend you use such extra money as you do receive
from the Department." If need be, if they say it is not going
to be enough, then we would have to go back to Lord Falconer in
time to follow.
Q79 Keith Vaz: But your message to
the Department is, "I want to get on with the job"?
Richard Thomas: Absolutely.
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