Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-227)
BARONESS ASHTON
OF UPHOLLAND
18 APRIL 2006
Q220 Chairman: Electronic records
bring their own problems, digital records require—I think
this is the evidence we have from the National Archives—"skilled
labour intensive processes to ensure that the data is regularly
backed up and periodically migrated to the latest approved software.
Because of the ephemeral nature of digital records, they are likely
to perish within a few years of their creation, unless active
steps are taken to ensure their survival". That is a pretty
serious problem, what are you doing about it?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
The approach that we take is to make sure that all records which
are kept electronically are regularly backed up and moved on to
the latest system. A lot of records are, of course, paper based,
and they create their own problems but generally it is of a different
order. There is no suggestion that I can find that we are going
to lose information at the moment because it is not being regularly
backed up and moved on. The question is "Can we make it a
much more efficient process across government?" My guess
is of course we can, hence the discussion with the National Archives
about ways in which they could support a more strategic approach
to records management. That means we move on as the technology
moves on, but we anticipate it as well and we make sure we have
got systems in place to tackle that.
Q221 Chairman: Who has got the power
or responsibility to pursue this, you or the National Archives
or is the Cabinet Office involved? Who can make departments do
what needs to be done?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
I am hoping it is not a question of making the departments, I
am hoping they will rush with enthusiasm to want to be part of
a more strategic approach. Certainly the information that we have
from the National Archives is that the general approach of government
departments is they want to be part and parcel of working together
more strategically. We have got a lot of work to do because at
the moment, of course, individual departments have their own systems
in place. What we are hoping we can do is move to a shared service
approach led by the National Archives and then think through that
about ways in which we could make records management more effective
and make sure that the archives move effectively between individual
departments and the National Archives themselves. It is a question
of the National Archives and ourselves working closely with other
government departments as a team rather than imposing on them
what we think they ought to do.
Q222 Chairman: You spoke quite confidently
about the fact that records had been backed up. If you look at
any five-year period, say 1990-1995 or 1995-2000, for example,
can you say with confidence that no records have been lost because
of the inherent defects of electronic records management over
those periods?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
If you look to 1990, the only information on computers in 1990
would have been huge data sets within the National Archive and
those are fine, almost everything else was on a paper basis. It
was really only in the last few years, as my children are wont
to tell me, that we have moved to the system of backing things
up either through the internet or through different systems on
a hard drive. Information on floppy disks, which are now effectively
archaic as far as I can work out, have all been migrated on to
the new systems. Again, there is nothing that suggests to me that
we have lost anything because as computer technology has moved
along, we have found ways in which we have incorporated it. Certainly
pre-1995, Windows 95 being the operating system when life began
as far as teenagers are concerned, is the one where you start
to see the systems being backed up on the hard drive.
Q223 Chairman: There is nothing,
as far as you know, that you cannot access out of those periods
or even the more recent 2000-2005 period?
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Not that I am aware of. Again, most of it will still be paper
based because the way the computer technology was used in the
early 1990s, things were run off and printed off and that was
the copy that was kept.
Q224 Chairman: If you take from 2000
onwards there is an awful lot of material in the form of emails,
for example, which previously would have been paper correspondence.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
They would have been paper correspondence but of course most correspondence
that is kept—and I say again only 5% of records are kept—will
be kept in a migrated system. Again, the way that technology works
is that even when systems crash, the capacity to be able to extract
the information from a computer grows and grows all the time.
The question for us, a big question really, is what will that
technology look like in 10 years because predicting where it is
going to go I think is the biggest challenge. Certainly I am keen
that the National Archives talk to some of the big computer companies
to tell us where they think it might go. My experience in education,
when I was responsible for IT in education, was trying to think
not what the children need today but what it will look like in
five years and what will the classroom of the future need to have
within it. I think we are in the same position here which is what
will it be like; how will people store information; how do you
keep it secure and safe, which is also important so it cannot
be tampered with but where will it best be kept and how far do
you need a single approach to that as opposed to an individual
departmental approach?
Q225 David Howarth: One specific
concern was not the physical medium, what sort of disk, it was
whether the information could be read because it is out of date
and the modern software cannot read old data. I have come across
this in my own computer with very old things that I wrote on a
very early version of Word that I now cannot read. That was the
problem I had in mind it was not just the physical problem, it
was the software problem and other problems of that sort.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Indeed. As I understand it all the software is migrated on to
new software immediately so you do not get that. There is nowhere
that I am picking that this is a significant problem of any kind,
and, of course, even on your system, as you describe it, there
are technicians who can translate that for you via some means.
Q226 David Howarth: Yes, from museums.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
Yes, exactly, they have got the technology buried away somewhere
to be able to translate it off your old system on to the new system.
It is less and less of a problem because the technology gets better
and better but you are absolutely right it is critical that we
migrate all of the old stuff as quickly as we possibly can and
are mindful of when that software is going to be obsolete. Again,
that points to what we need to think about in terms of the future
so we have got the systems in place to be ready for how we will
store information in the future which will look again, I am sure,
very different.
Q227 Chairman: I am sure the Committee
welcomes the personal interest you are taking in this. We ought
not to ignore the seriousness of the National Archives' warning
because in their evidence to us they said, "There is a serious
risk that FOI requests for information that is only a few years
old and held in electronic form will simply not be retrievable.
Unless processed, the information . . . may have perished completely
or may not be readable . . .", for the reason that Mr Howarth
has just advanced. They obviously regard this as a serious problem.
I surmise from the interests you are showing that you do but you
are almost suggesting to us not to worry because it is all under
control.
Baroness Ashton of Upholland:
I am trying to suggest to you that we are alive to the problem
that exists and there is a plan in the offing to try and develop
proper records management across the system. I think what the
National Archives are quite rightly pointing to is where I began
by saying it is patchy, you have got good examples in some places,
less good examples in others. It is again back to consistency
of approach and whether the time is increasingly coming about
where the role of the National Archives in supporting that could
be enhanced. That is an area that I am very keen to explore because
I think they do have a huge amount to contribute to become the
guardians of record management across Government and thereby give
that. I am not trying to be complacent or suggest that we crack
the problem more than I think we are alive to it and we recognise
that there are things that we can do to make sure that we do back-up
the systems effectively.
Chairman: Lady Ashton, thank you very
much indeed for your help this afternoon.
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