Examination of Witnesses (Questions 65-79)
MR CRAIG
REEDIE CBE, MS
SUE CAMPBELL
CBE, MR DAVID
MOORCROFT AND
DAME TANNI
GREY-THOMPSON
18 OCTOBER 2005
Chairman: Can I welcome our next set
of witnesses: Craig Reedie, who is the outgoing Chairman of the
BOA and a member of the IOC, Sue Campbell from UK Sport, David
Moorcroft from UK Athletics and Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson. I am
sorry that we have kept you waiting slightly. Obviously the success
of 2012 will depend firstly on our delivering a successful Games
but will be measured to some extent also by the success of the
British teams and, therefore, that is something that we will be
interested in talking to you about. There are a number of questions
my colleagues have. Can I ask Mike Hall to kick off.
Q65 Mr Hall: There has been some
recent discussion about the increase in the number of athletes
we will need to field in the 2012 Olympics because we are the
host nation. Could you say a few words about how we will achieve
that increase in the number of athletes? Could you also say something
about the way that we are changing the structures of the way sport
is managed with the move from Sport England to UK Sport and the
interaction that might have with the governing bodies within sport?
Mr Reedie: Can I do the first
part. I know that you are seeing the new Chairman of the British
Olympic Association and his chief executive, so I suggest that
you might have to ask them rather than me as I gave up 12 days
ago. The reason for the increase in the size of the team will
be that in a number of sports the host nation qualifies as a matter
of right and in other sports it does not. Clearly, hosting the
Games we would want to have as many British competitors as possible
in Team GB in 2012. I think the maximum possible number is 720.
That will depend entirely on whether all of the teams that have
to qualify actually qualify and whether all of the athletes who
have to meet the qualifying standards actually qualify. It is
a big jump from the Athens team which from memory was about 275.
We are in the hands of the skill of the athletes and the qualifying
system in 2012. The rest of it I am happy to pass over to Sue.
Ms Campbell: UK Sport is working
very closely with the BOA to identify the very important question
you have asked, which is how we find these athletes. Clearly that
is a sport by sport issue. Having set out with the ambition to
put a full and, indeed, successful team on the ground for 2012
we are now in the process of costing that out as we manage the
public investment, both Lottery and Exchequer, into the development
of both our athletes and our sport to ensure that we can get the
most successful Olympic and Paralympic Games ever in 2012. We
are starting slightly differently than perhaps we have done in
the past which is, rather than starting from a position of aspirational
plans, we have started in a slightly more businesslike way looking
at the number of athletes we need, the number of medals we need,
the number of athletes we need in the medals zone and the number
of athletes we need underpinning that in order to drive the level
of medal success we corporately want to achieve in both the Olympics
and Paralympics. Then we will be allocating those places, if you
like, to the more successful sports ensuring we put a full team
but investing more money in those sports that can generate greater
success.
Q66 Mr Hall: Can I just press you
on the structure of it. The structural change from Sport England
to UK Sport is quite important in terms of the way that sports
themselves are actually organised. There is a suggestion from
Lord Moynihan and Kate Hoey that we have too many organisational
bodies that are available and they have come forward with a solution,
not one that I favour myself, that we should radically reduce
the number of organisations so that we can have less duplication
and more effort going into delivery.
Ms Campbell: I think we would
all feel that the new structure will give us less duplication.
What we now have is Sport England very much focused on community
participation and development at a community and local level.
UK Sport is very much focused on the development of talent right
through to the podium. We have taken the view, based on international
research, that it takes around eight years from the identification
of an individual through to the podium and we are now responsible
for that entire continuum from the identification stage, confirmation
of that talent, through to the podium. I have to say the governing
bodies' performance directors and the British Paralympic Association
have unanimously supported this change and believe that it will
give them the structure that will allow us to deliver success
in 2012.
Q67 Mr Hall: We have a lot of work
to do if we look at the World Athletics in 2005 which was not
the most remarkable performance of our athletes, was it?
Mr Moorcroft: We have a huge amount
of work to do. The last two Olympic Games have been very successful
for Britain in terms of the total number of medals, both Olympics
and Paralympics, in terms of the number of gold medals, but the
underpinning number of medals and the number of finalists have
not been at the level we would want or that we need in 2012. There
are only two nations that consistently get their athletes into
at least 50% of finals at the Olympic Games, and they are the
USA and Russia in track and field. They are the only two nations
that consistently win lots of medals. There are a number of medals
that we need to win in athletics to contribute towards the aim
of being the fourth overall nation in 2012. One of the key challenges
that we have in athletics is to get more people into finals. Currently
it is around 25-30% of finals in the Olympics and we need to make
that 50%. Part of what Sue was referring to, getting more athletes
into the medals zone, is crucial. That is as relevant in the Paralympics
as it is in the Olympics.
Q68 Paul Farrelly: Clearly we are
not as big as the United States and we are not yet a Communist
country, and with their structures I am sure all the venues in
China will be packed to the brim day in and day out, and we have
not got the Great Barrier Reef here. We do regularly trail comparably
sized countries in Europe: Italy, France and Germany. What are
they doing right that we are not? In terms of the organisation
of sport and talent spotting, which country would you most like
to follow or lead, having done your international research?
Mr Reedie: The statistics are
that in Athens we were very narrowly behind Italy, we were very
narrowly behind France and we have got a little bit to go to beat
Germany. I think it is a very reasonable aspiration to be the
best country in Europe. The challenge is to beat the Australians
because they have invested wisely and very long-term in sport.
Their bad time was Montreal in 1976 when they did so badly that
they decided they would invest in elite sport, and it took them
the thick end of 28 years to the Sydney Games being the catalyst.
In fact, there are many similarities in what I hope the governing
bodies and UK Sport are going to do. France throws an enormous
amount of money at sport but I am not sure that they target it
as well as they should. I think we could target our money a little
better. We probably need to spend a little bit more time on the
quality of our coaches. If we get that right I hope that the natural
enthusiasm for Olympic sport will allow the people on my right
to deliver what we want.
Ms Campbell: I think the answer
to your question is that every country has very different strengths.
What we have been looking at is what does it take around the individual
athlete to produce world class success. We know that there are
certain components that you need around the athlete and the first,
as Craig quite rightly said, is a world class coach. We are investing
now in UK Sport, very much in partnership with the governing bodies,
in developing elite home grown coaches because in the past we
have had to import many of our Olympic coaches. We have learned
a great deal from that but we want to produce home grown world
coaches as part of the legacy of the Olympic Games. We want to
leave a stronger, better infrastructure for the development of
sport post the Games. The Games are not an end for us, they are
a staging post to producing a better sporting nation. We believe
that once you get the coach and athlete dynamic, it is then about
giving that coach and athlete all of the support, whether it is
the right facility, the right opportunities in terms of sports,
science of sport, medicine and nutritional advice, and packaging
that very much around the athlete. That is the approach we have
taken and that is the way we have planned out the business case,
which is to look at what does it around each athlete to produce
the world's best and how do we best focus the investment we have
got in sport to make the biggest difference. That is where we
are at the moment.
Q69 Adam Price: Just on that point
of coaches, you are right that there is a certain predominance
of foreign coaches, particularly in football but thinking of rowing
as well, where there has been some success. I think hockey and
gymnastics lost some key coaches last year simply because they
were not paid enough, I understand, or that was one of the elements.
How will we address that? Okay, growing home grown talent but
is there enough money there for the coaching element?
Mr Reedie: My answer to that is
I hope so. Successful Olympic coaches become very attractive people
to National Olympic Committees and their employers all around
the world. The fact that we have been successful over the years
in attracting a few to come to Britain means that when we are
successful they become very attractive to other National Olympic
Committees. We need to be able to offer these people contracts
with sufficient salaries and all the other benefits and enthusiasm
to keep them in Britain through 2012 and thereafter.
Ms Campbell: I think that is why
long-term funding is so critical both for our athletes and our
coaching system. What we need is consistency and high quality.
We need to be able to give world class coaches world class salaries,
but also long-term commitment. It is no good committing for a
couple of years and saying, "We will come back to you and
tell you whether we can keep you on contract". We really
need to have a long-term vision past 2012 so that we can attract
world class coaches. Absolutely critical to us, as well as a nation,
is using that expertise to develop a whole batch of home grown
coaches who are learning from the best in the world that we have
left in this country. If you look at the coaching structure in
this country, in relation to many other countries internationally
it is poor. We still are very, very dependent on volunteers, which
is fantastic but there is not that professional infrastructure
of coaching that you would find in many of our European competitors.
There is no question that that coach/athlete dynamic is critical
to performance.
Q70 Mr Evans: I was in Australia
two years ago and I went to have a look at their Sporting Academy
in Canberra and it was brilliant. I saw eight year olds jumping
around on bars and various other gymnastic things and it was absolutely
tremendous to see. What are we missing as a trick to get our eight
and nine year olds involved in sport?
Mr Reedie: I am not sure that
the British Olympic Association are the right people to answer
that question because we concentrate very much at the elite end.
We do really need the success of Olympic athletes to encourage
lots of young people to get involved in sport. I am afraid we
are not an across the board agency.
Q71 Mr Evans: Do you think there
are some youngsters out there who have got talent but somehow
are being missed or not being given the opportunities because
of a lack of facilities, for instance?
Mr Reedie: I am sure that is true.
I am sure it is lack of facilities, lack of organisation in governing
bodies, lack of enthusiasm, lack of interest. I hope that we have
gone a long way to redress that. One of the most important things
in making London an acceptable candidate was to perform extremely
well in Sydney. Atlanta in 1996 was a bit of a medal disaster
if you think back but Sydney was outstanding. Salt Lake in the
middle with a curling gold medal meant that the whole Olympic
ethos was in the public eye and it encouraged people. I hope that
has encouraged lots of young people to want to take up Olympic
sport. We tend to concentrate a little bit in this country on
the number of people who take up track and field or swimming.
I can take you to Bardowie Loch outside Glasgow where they are
teaching kids in dinghies to sail. That might be because we are
the best sailing team in the world. It is not a universal statement.
It is easy to make but I do not think it is true across all sports.
We have got to do better than we have done before.
Ms Campbell: I think that is where
the Olympic vision and the Olympic role models can really impact
on participation. At the other end, what we have all got to be
doing is working smarter and better with schools to ensure that
we are providing participation opportunities to both able and
disabled youngsters both to take part in sport and then to excel
in sport. The new National Strategy in England, which is getting
our £250 million a year investment, is beginning to create
multi-skill clubs, multi-skill academies at primary schools right
across the country where youngsters are getting that opportunity
to develop real athleticism, real skill and real talent that we
can build on because whatever sport we are in we all need athleticism.
It is not necessarily athletics but athleticism is the basis of
all athletic success. Getting that right at the primary school
age is absolutely critical. You are right to point out that we
have not done that terribly well in the past but we are beginning
to get that right and we are beginning to make a difference there.
It is connecting that great vision and excitement that the Olympics
creates with a structure at school level that captures that imagination
and develops it.
Q72 Mr Evans: Considering that some
of the athletes who will be taking part in 2012 are still at school,
they are young, perhaps 11 or 12 years of age, say they have got
a certain skill or talent and it is not being developed, they
have not got the right coaching or whatever it happens to be,
yet they are desperate to participate in the Olympics, do they
get in touch with you and say, "Please, we want assistance?"
Are you receiving letters off youngsters now saying, "Please
help me"?
Ms Campbell: Not directly, but
I am sure the governing bodies are. Dave perhaps can talk to you
about that. Not wanting to disillusion any 11 year old who has
aspirations, there are very few sports where 11 year olds will
be in the Olympics in 2012. The average age of Olympic success
is 25/26, so if you take off the six years you can see that we
are not at 11 years of age, we are looking at 16/17/18 year olds
who probably will be getting into the Olympic arena. You will
have some exceptions, there is no question, but they will be in
the minority. Many of the sports now have systems where they are
identifying and nurturing that talent through their club and coaching
structures.
Mr Moorcroft: It is true to say
that following 6 July there was a huge increase in the number
of young people who joined sports clubs. Whether that was very
objectively gathered information, I do not know, but certainly
anecdotally I was at a meeting of chief officers of many sports
and they said that there was a huge increase. The challenge we
have got from that day onwards is to be certain we have got the
capacity to cater for those youngsters who want to now take part
in sport. In parallel with developing the athletes, as Sue said,
we have got to develop the capacity of coaching, clubs, facilities,
the school curriculum and non-school curriculum experience, the
link between school and clubs. All of that has to be done in parallel
so we build a stronger capacity for sport as well as improving
participation and performance levels.
Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson: I think
one of the huge strengths we have seen in terms of the advent
of Lottery funding on the Paralympic side of sport is that it
has forced and encouraged inclusion within mainstream governing
bodies because if we want to develop a strong Paralympic team
it has to come through the mainstream governing bodies, not the
myriad of disability groups that were formed 40 years ago because
of exclusion and segregation. In terms of Paralympic success,
we need to drive that forward through the mainstream governing
bodies and make sure that young disabled athletes are members
of their local athletics clubs, they do not have to travel long
distances and they get access to the good quality coaching that
is available in clubs. If we want to drive it forward it is making
sure that disabled children within mainstream education actually
have physical activity as part of their statement of education,
which currently does not happen because sport is not seen as a
massive priority. I went through mainstream education, and education
will always be seen as the driving force. If you can target that
and include PE as part of that you are making massive long-term
differences to disabled people's lives. One of the difficulties
we have on the Paralympic side is that we will have people competing
in London who have not broken their back yet, who have not got
a motorbike and have not crashed their car. We have two approaches.
It is looking at children with congenital disabilities but also
being very smart in how we target people who come through spinal
units or go through a traumatic accident. Especially if they have
been an athlete, on their route to becoming a successful Paralympian
you might be looking at a transfer of two or three years and they
can be competing in another sport. Again, it is being smarter
and using the governing bodies and being very cost-effective in
the way that we promote the development of athletes.
Q73 Mr Evans: Are people writing
to you, Tanni, because of you being a role model saying, "We
need help. We need money. We need coaching"?
Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson: I get
probably about 20 emails a week saying, "Can I do wheelchair
racing? Can I get an entry form for the Paralympics?" which
is quite a funny one. It is amazing for me being out and about
seeing the number of people who say, "I am going to start
running. I am going to do this, I am going to do that", and
you look at some people and think "Maybe you will not ever
be an Olympian or Paralympian" but winning the Games has
inspired people. It is how we can target that inspiration as far
as 2012 but also use 2012 to inspire the next generation beyond
that to be physically active and healthy and then carry on into
elite sport.
Mr Moorcroft: In the previously
disjointed world of sport in Britain, and athletics was very much
part of that, we probably lacked a sense of purpose, the sort
of purpose that 2012 has given us. Trying to articulate that,
not just in terms of the number of people who stand on the rostrum
but how that builds the depth and breadth of sport in the UK is
one of the challenges that we all face. The Canberra experience
you referred to is a great facility but Australia probably learned
that centralising the facility had many disadvantages. I think
one of the good things that happened as a consequence of Sue's
and other people's work is there is now a network of facilities
across the UK and there is a regional drive in Scotland, Wales
and Northern Ireland, all the regions of the UK, for identity
but also to generate enthusiasm and focus. If we get it right
the outcome in 2012 will be pretty exciting.
Q74 Rosemary McKenna: Just on that
point, I wonder if I can ask a rather specific question. Sports
journalists in Scotland have been greatly exercised about who
will represent a British football team, how we will achieve a
British football team. It would be a great pity if we did not
participate in every sport. I know you have said that it is up
to the football authorities, quite rightly, but how do you think
they could solve this problem?
Mr Reedie: I was hoping you might
address that question to Lord Moynihan. The International Football
Federation wishes that there is a British team in the London Olympic
Games. The London Organising Committee clearly wants a British
team in the London Olympic Games. I am on record, and have been
for years, as saying that I hope it will involve all four home
countries. It is up to the Scottish Football Association to make
up their minds whether they wish to take part in whatever qualifying
system is in place, whether it is four countries playing off or
a team with representation. I hope that they do. I do not share
their fears and concerns about the future individual identity
in FIFA. At the moment I am afraid it overtakes too much of the
Olympic debate. I think we in Scotland are much more enthused
about the track and field opportunities, the swimming opportunities,
rowing and all the rest, but everything comes down to the football
team. I hope that it will be resolved and I feel confident that
it will. My belief is that most people in this country and most
people in Scotland want it to happen as well. I think we should
just let the thought develop. I think that an Olympic section
of the football competition being played at Hampden would be a
very good thing.
Q75 Rosemary McKenna: You perhaps
did not want the question but I do think it is important to put
on record that it is achievable, because I believe that most people
want a GB football team with all four nations represented in it,
and I hope that the football authorities will be able to come
to an agreement. I think it is politics, is it not, with a small
"p'?
Mr Reedie: I would be very happy
if you could send a transcript of this question to John McBeth
and David Taylor of the Scottish Football Association.
Rosemary McKenna: I know John McBeth
extremely well.
Adam Price: According to an opinion poll
most people in Scotland want to see a Scottish Olympic team.
Q76 Rosemary McKenna: I do not know
who they questioned. They are quite happy to be in the Commonwealth
Games and do extremely well in those Games.
Ms Campbell: Joking apart, I have
to say that as UK Sport we spent a very positive and constructive
couple of days in Scotland last week and, absolutely rightly,
they want to develop a strong Scotland team for the Commonwealth
Games, as we would wish them to do. They are absolutely committed
as their top line goal to producing athletes who go forward to
compete on a UK British level. I feel very confident that we have
overcome some of the difficulties that we perhaps once had interpreting
what we all were meaning. I think we are on a much, much clearer
page. We all want athletes from whatever part of the United Kingdom
to achieve the ultimate goal of achieving success in 2012 and
we are all joined up with that. As Dave says, 2012 has given us
a different kind of focus than perhaps we have had before.
Mr Reedie: For the record, for
the Committee's assistance I hope, the only way that an entity
or a country takes part in the Olympic Games is to be awarded
a National Olympic Committee by the International Olympic Committee.
The Olympic Charter now says that going forward for a number of
years the only people who will be awarded a National Olympic Committee
are independent nations recognised by the international community.
That is the situation under the rules. The political debate about
who represents whom is good knockabout media stuff, in my view,
but the reality is that we take part as Great Britain in the Olympic
Games and until the political map of this country changes then
that fact remains.
Q77 Mr Sanders: Is the difficulty
more to do with the football authorities rather than the Olympic
bodies? Is not a way round this for individual athletes, professional
footballers who might qualify for a UK team, to opt into a UK
team in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland irrespective of what
their national football bodies have to say?
Mr Reedie: I do not think, Mr
Sanders, I want to speculate on that possibility. It is certainly
within the powers of the football authorities and, in fact, the
football authorities are talking about it. There is a working
group being chaired by David Davies of the Football Association,
and I hope that all four nations come together in 2012.
Q78 Adam Price: Moving on to the
Paralympics, if I may. The 2012 bid rightly focused on strengthening
the Paralympic movement as well as emphasising accessibility and
inclusivity in facilities for both events. How did you assess
the treatment of the Paralympics in the bid? That is a question
principally for Tanni. What did this influence have in helping
London to win the Games?
Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson: I think
right from the start the bid was extremely inclusive and for me
that was very positive. I would not have been involved with the
bid if the Paralympics had been something tagged on at the end.
I have spent most of my career trying to promote disability sport
and I do not need to be involved in an Olympic bid just to feel
like a second class citizen, which is how we have felt at some
previous Games. In 1996 we were very much tagged on at the end
which had no real value to the Olympics. What has been hugely
positive throughout the whole bid is athletes have been involved,
both Olympians and Paralympians, and that has made a big difference.
The fact that it is going to be run almost as one Games will make
a huge difference. In various Games I have been to before the
Olympics move out and then ramps are slapped in and it has been
very much added on. I think Sydney set a new mark in how Paralympics
were perceived and we were all quite surprised with how well Athens
went for the Paralympics. I think London is going to move that
on yet again. From talking to some of the IOC members and other
people involved around the world, they were impressed with how
high a profile the Paralympics had. On the final day of presentation
it was about winning the Olympics because that was what the IOC
members expected to have in the final presentation, but leading
up to that the bid was absolutely fantastic and I think all the
Paralympians who were involved felt very included and very positive
about it, that it was not just something that comes a couple of
weeks after and does not have a high profile.
Q79 Adam Price: We do fantastically
well in the Paralympics in the UK. We came second in Athens and
in Sydney compared to tenth in the last Olympic Games. Why are
we so strong in the UK in Paralympic events and what more could
be done?
Dame Tanni Grey-Thompson: I think
we have a fantastic history of disabled athletes competing. That
is probably because we were one of the first countries to offer
sporting opportunities for disabled athletes. Most of the reason
for that was after the Second World War the life expectancy of
a quadriplegic was two years and a paraplegic was between five
and seven years. The real reason sport started was that it was
felt there was not enough money to keep the war injured in hospital
until they died, so sport was used as a rehabilitation initially.
We have got very strong roots where we have come from and a lot
of events have been organised in the UK and that has provided
a good solid base. What we have seen in the last few years, and
what we are going to see in Beijing, is major changes in the number
of countries competing and the quality of athletes. If we want
to carry on and maintain that level of success, some of it does
come down to funding, unfortunately, funding does make a difference,
but it is also about inclusion in governing bodies, inclusion
within the mainstream structures and making sure we get it right
at school level. I think we do have an amazing opportunity to
be very, very successful in the future but we have to make sure
that work carries on and is happening right now, that we do not
just leave it to chance. We cannot sit on our laurels and say
we have done well in the past and it is going on. Beijing will
be a massive step forward just in terms of the number of Chinese
athletes who will be competing. They have huge advantages in terms
of the number of people who were injured through industrial incidents
and lack of medical care and all sorts of things that we have
not really tapped into yet. In the UK we have a huge potential
to tap into a lot of sources that we have not yet identified.
Ms Campbell: From a funding point
of view we are looking for a real step change between now and
2012 in making sure that talent pipeline, if you want to call
it that, which is this structured pipeline, is much more clearly
defined and much more clearly supported. In the past we have invested
in athletes who have arrived with us as opposed to going and finding
athletes, potential Paralympians, either in the school system
or any other system. One of the things we are doing is working
with the British Paralympic Association to ensure that pipeline
of talent is much more clearly identified, nurtured and supported
over a much longer period than we have had in the past which should
make us more competitive in 2012.
| 
