Examination of Witnesses (Questions 202-219)
LORD MOYNIHAN,
MR SIMON
CLEGG, MS
SARA FRIEND
AND MR
MIKE BRACE
OBE
1 NOVEMBER 2005
Chairman: Good morning. I am sorry to
have kept you waiting whilst we finished the previous session.
Can I welcome our four witnesses for this second part of the inquiry:
Lord Moynihan, who we should also congratulate on his election
as the new Chairman of the British Olympic Association; Simon
Clegg, the Chief Executive of the BOA; Sara Friend, the Director
of Legal Services and Mike Brace who is Chairman of the British
Paralympic Association. Welcome to you all. Can I invite Alan
Keen to ask the first question.
Q202 Alan Keen: Many people have contributed
towards winning the Games that we are all so thrilled about, but
we would not have got them had there not been a respected British
Olympic Association there to start with so congratulations and
congratulations to Colin as well. The Chairman of the BOA has
a seat on the Olympic Board but the British Paralympic Association
has not, is that something which should be addressed?
Mr Brace: Certainly I think there
need to be adequate links in there because I think the two Games
will have a life of their own developing, and I think the closeness
of the links would need to be developed but also the specific
issues affecting the Paralympic Games would be strengthened by
some form of either ex officio or linked representation on the
ODA.
Lord Moynihan: Chairman, firstly,
thank you very much for your kind opening words. Mike and I have
already been in discussion about the importance of very close
co-operation with the British Olympic Association and the British
Paralympic Association. We intend to strengthen that relationship.
As structured currently certainly we see the Chairman of the British
Olympic Association's role on the Olympic Board as one of working
closely with Mike to represent the interests wherever we can of
the paralympians. That is the result of a structure which I have
inherited. Suffice it to say the close co-operation between the
BPA and the BOA is something we value and treasure and regard
as absolutely essential.
Q203 Alan Keen: Has anyone been specifically
given the role of letting the British people understand that there
is a paralympic context going on as well? The way the public think
about people with disabilities has advanced tremendously in the
last few years, but there are still lots of problems obviously.
Is there anyone with that specific role to involve the public
and let them know it is a key part of the Olympics?
Mr Brace: Not as yet. I think
the development through LOCOG—I have a place on LOCOG from
the Paralympic Association—as we put more of the structure
in place, both within LOCOG in terms of the delivery of the Paralympic
Games and obviously the linkage that Colin mentioned earlier on
with BOA in terms of making sure that there is either a joint
message or a specific message that is appropriate to the Olympics
or the Paralympics I think will be quite an important aspect,
especially with the extensive BBC coverage we have had and we
will expect to have through Beijing and then on to 2012.
Q204 Alan Keen: Jumping from the
beginning of the Olympics right to after the Olympics, it is forecast
that there will be a £100 million surplus of which 20% goes
to the BOA, will some of that money be going to the Paralympic
Association? I know we are projecting a long way ahead.
Lord Moynihan: You are looking
into a crystal ball with greater accuracy than we can at the present
time, Alan. Suffice it to say that we will be working to ensure
that there is an operating profit, as substantial an operating
profit as possible. One of the reasons why we are represented
on LOCOG is that at recent Olympic Games, for example Athens,
they made an operating profit despite the very high costs that
they faced. That split of the operating profit was a 20:20:60
split. 20% goes directly to the British Olympic Association, 20%
goes to the International Olympic Committee and 60% on the advice
of the British Olympic Association is spent on sports projects
within the United Kingdom. Now it seems to me wholly sensible
that as we move forward into the discussion over how that 60%
is spent that the enormous contribution that paralympians and
the British Paralympic Association make should be fully reflected
in deciding the spend of that 60%.
Q205 Alan Keen: You heard me ask
a question earlier on about the future of the Olympics and I have
asked you before. Are there talks in the IOC about looking differently
at the bidding process rather than the bidding process directly
going in to subsidise and help developing nations to host the
Olympics? It will mean changes to the way the Games are run, of
course. Are there are any talks going on and certainly, if there
are not, will you be pushing this in the future?
Mr Clegg: I have to say our plate
is somewhat full at this moment in time in terms of concentrating
on delivering Team GB in 2012. I think it is worth recognising,
also, that the International Olympic Committee do make a major
contribution through the Olympic Solidarity Programme to developing
nations. What the IOC needs to protect, obviously, is the value
of its brand because by being able to drive a major commercial
sponsorship through the brand, through the sale of worldwide television
and marketing rights, that provides them with the funding for
Olympic Solidarity to run the thousands of programmes that they
run each year across all 202 National Olympic Committees, particularly
focused at developing nations. The IOC was in a very fortunate
position of having five of the world's leading cities aspiring
to host the 2012 Games and that is fantastic for their brand and
for the future of their brand. There is undoubtedly a desire to
take the Olympic movement into parts of the world which to date
have not hosted Olympic Games, particularly into Africa and South
America. I am sure there is a good chance that we will see strong
candidate cities coming from those two continents in the future
but I think it would be wrong at this moment in time for the IOC
to insist that it should restrict its candidate cities in future
bidding contests to a particular continent.
Q206 Alan Keen: We have got a new
Chairman of the BOA, will he be looking at this in the future?
We are preoccupied at the moment I know with our own preparation
but if it is going to inspire young people in this country how
much better will it be even to inspire young people in a developing
nation?
Lord Moynihan: There is no doubt
that in the bidding process Seb Coe recognised that very strongly.
It was one of the most attractive features of the presentation
which focused on that, that this is a world movement, that the
Olympic Games need to inspire the young people to be involved
in sport across the globe. That was a very compelling message
and one well delivered. I do endorse what Simon has said, that
the IOC is very active on this front. Is there room for further
work to be done? Yes, there is. Has it been on my agenda in the
last three and a half weeks since I arrived in the job? It has
not yet, Alan, but it is important it is not overlooked and certainly
it will be something that Simon and I will look at closely in
the future.
Alan Keen: Please do not take this question
as antagonism, I am as thrilled as a nine-year old in East London
about the Olympics.
Q207 Mr Evans: I would like to congratulate
you too, Colin, on your new position but I would like to go, if
I can, back to the structure of the BOA. The elections were about
three weeks ago. Now the BOA, if I understand it rightly, are
an independent body, a charity, no government funding?
Ms Friend: No government funding,
no National Lottery funding, but we are not a charity. We are
a company limited by guarantee, a not-for-profit organisation.
Q208 Mr Evans: During the elections
which just took place, Simon, can I ask you whether you were surprised
at reading some of the reports in newspapers about people being
lobbied heavily during that period by Government?
Mr Clegg: By Government?
Q209 Mr Evans: Yes?
Mr Clegg: It was a democratic
election and everyone had the right to lobby the various candidates.
I think we were in a privileged position of having two outstanding
candidates for the post of Chairman. At the end of the day the
individual voting members of our constituency, the National Olympic
Committee members from the 35 Olympic sports, within the secret
ballot elected Colin as our new Chairman. There were people out
there lobbying for different candidates, and I do not have a problem
with that as a matter of principle.
Q210 Mr Evans: Do you think it is
right that anybody should be acting on behalf of the Government
to lobby anybody against one candidate or for another?
Mr Clegg: I have no evidence to
support that suggestion.
Q211 Mr Evans: Can I ask you, therefore,
have any of your voting members reported to you that any discussions
took place between them and either the Government directly, ministers
or, indeed, anybody acting on behalf of the Government?
Mr Clegg: Some of the voting members
had discussions with me relating to approaches made to them by
members of the sports councils and members of the various institutes.
Whether you class those quangos as being related to Government,
I am not sure; by their Royal Charter they are independent of
them.
Q212 Mr Evans: Can you put a little
more meat on the bones then and tell us which sporting bodies
contacted your voting members and lobbied them?
Mr Clegg: All I can tell you is
discussions did take place between some of my voting members and
representatives from UK Sport and the English Institute of Sport.
Mr Evans: Do you think that is appropriate
because you can argue that they are representative of the Government?
These are bodies funded by the Government.
Mr Hall: They do not represent the Government.
Q213 Mr Evans: They are funded by
Government.
Mr Clegg: The sports councils
were established to represent sport to the Government, and, therefore,
it is entirely appropriate that those people with an interest
in sport and ensuring that we succeed in this process have the
opportunity to voice their views. Whether those were taken on
board by the voting members or not, I am not sure.
Q214 Mr Evans: Can I ask the Chairman,
therefore, this question: what was the mood during the period
when this election was going on? Did you have any evidence that
there was any lobbying going on?
Lord Moynihan: I read in the media
that there was a quite a lot of activity going on in the wings,
I was unaware of it personally. I take the view, Nigel, that the
BOA is an independent body. It is not funded by Government. It
has always been robust in maintaining and treasuring its independence
back to the days in 1980 when Government sought to encourage it
not to send a team to the Moscow Olympics. It was fiercely independent
of its position then that it should consider that advice and then
decide to leave the final decision to the governing bodies of
sport. Its independence is well documented through history. On
this occasion I do not think, if any of it was true, and I have
no evidence to suggest that it was, it would have been a constructive
way forward for a government to move in a direction you describe.
If anything, it would probably have been counter-productive but,
as I said, that is pure speculation.
Q215 Mr Evans: Can I ask you, finally,
on looking towards the Olympics, is it part of your role as Chairman
to look at some of these sporting bodies as well and to make recommendations
about the way that they are organised in order that they may perform
better themselves in the run up to the Olympics?
Lord Moynihan: Anything that can
improve the delivery of services and funding to the sports men
and women in this country, particularly as far as the British
Olympic Association is concerned, is a matter of concern and interest
to the British Olympic Association. Yes, as part of the wider
legacy of ensuring the passion and the tremendous support for
a host nation which the Olympic Games delivers, then it is important
that we make sure we have a fit-for-purpose sports policy throughout
the United Kingdom which matches the tremendous achievement the
Prime Minister and Lord Coe and his team put in in Singapore.
A fit-for-purpose sports policy has to match the great challenges
we have ahead of us now to deliver success in 2012 but also to
benefit from the wider legacy of ensuring that the quality of
sports provision in the United Kingdom and the importance given
to sports policy in the United Kingdom is significantly increased.
Q216 Mr Evans: We can expect some
recommendations then to the Secretary of State?
Lord Moynihan: We are always open
to have constructive discussions with secretaries of state of
any party, whoever is in government at the time. I should add
the relationship with Tessa in the last three and a half, nearly
four weeks now, is strong. I think we all recognise that to have
a successful Olympics we should stand aside from party politics
and put the interests of the sports men and women first. That
remains my very clear objective and I am working well with Ken
Livingstone, Tessa and, of course, Seb Coe.
Q217 Paul Farrelly: I am very glad
we have now started to use the precious time that we have got
to move on to look at the future success of the Olympics rather
than score historic political points. Can I ask Mike, I have just
been reading your CV, it is phenomenal and it strikes a chord
with me because my son is seven and he is growing up and going
to a Hackney school, and we are trying to improve the facilities
there so all the children can look forward to the Olympics with
as much excitement as my friend Alan here and every nine-year
old boy and girl in the country and the capital. You have done
phenomenally well in Paralympics in the past, it is outstanding
what disabled sports people have achieved in the Paralympics.
What is your goal in terms of not just medals and numbers of entrants
but the legacy for disabled sports and the Paralympics in this
country at these Olympics that are going to happen in London?
Mr Brace: I think there are probably
three key ones. The first is the inspiring images that paralympic
sport can give both to people who themselves have a disability
and then can aspire to achieve things which they had not thought
of but also the major changes in the barriers and the equality
issues. Many of the barriers are placed in people's minds against
opening their perceptions of disability and looking at ability.
The social model of disability is someone who is blind, they have
an impairment but it is society that disables. I do think the
Paralympics have a massive power to challenge that thinking. I
think the second area of a major challenge is the inclusion of
people with a disability in pathways to sport and recreation.
As a ten-year old the thought of not being able to do sport was
more important to me than almost my blindness. It was so important
that I wanted to do the things that everyone else was doing and
have those opportunities. It is access, it is all the issues to
do with facilities, but it is the pathways for inclusive education.
We do not have the pathways to get the other disabled people into
active sport within the schools very often and then through sports
colleges or external events programmes into league programmes
and on to the Paralympics. The legacy for me would be a pathway
where if you are a seven-year old youngster in a wheelchair in
Hackney, you should have a very clear opportunity at some stage
when you find the sport that you are interested in into some sort
of programme that eventually will allow them to be in the wheelchair
basketball team or a track athlete; that would be the second one.
The third thing is the whole structure. There are 10 million people
with a disability in the UK, you are looking at 15% of the population
who have some form of disability, why is sport not a major opportunity
for most of those, and that is around the opportunity and infrastructure.
Q218 Mr Hall: Lord Moynihan, congratulations
on being appointed Chairman of the British Olympic Association.
I listened to your statement on the radio and if I recall your
words you said one of the challenges would be to move ourselves
from being tenth in the medal place to fourth. If I have worked
this out correctly, that means that we have to field more athletes
if we are going to compete in the 700 sports which are available,
an extra 429 athletes will have to be found if we are going to
reach the goal of fielding 700 Olympians. Have you worked out
how much it is going to cost to get us to fourth in the medal
table?
Lord Moynihan: Again, thank you
for your kind opening words. The answer to your question is we
are in the process of finalising the budget and, it may be helpful
to the Committee if I run through that process, where we are at
the present time and the timing of our budgetary process. The
Olympic Board have requested the British Olympic Association to
take a presentation on a costed programme to support Team 2012
to the December Board meeting, which is scheduled for 15 December.
That paper entitled Clearing the Bar will be finished in
advance of that date in order to have the support of the Executive
Committee of the British Olympic Association which will meet on
7 December. To get from where we are now to there, we need firstly
to sit down with all the governing bodies, the Olympic summer
governing bodies, to assess their requirements. When I say "assess
their requirements" I am talking about the staffing, the
coaching—the coaches are the centres of excellence—the
management, the administration, the medical, the scientific support
behind that, the international training in competition, the athletes'
personal awards, UK high performance centre usage, in other words
the comprehensive package that is required in order to support
the team in 2012. Yes, we will need to move significantly forward
from the 270 athletes that we fielded in Athens to, as you rightly
point out, a figure closer to 700. In fact, it will be above 700
in our current calculations, 720. It is not quantity that matters,
it is quality that matters, so those athletes would need to qualify
in order to participate in the Games in 2012. To reach the figure
that we will need to conclude our work in the next four weeks
and, we will continue to work very closely indeed with UK Sport.
UK Sport has been very active in working with the British Olympic
Association, going round to see the governing bodies, using a
performance-based model which has been a very constructive and
critical model in the context of working out the funding requirements.
I think it is best summarised as work in progress. We are about
three-quarters of the way through the discussions with the governing
bodies; we have more to complete. Clearly within each governing
body, Olympic governing body, there is an elite performance cell.
That elite performance cell has a performance director associated
with it and the performance director is critical to this process,
as are the coaches. It is essential as far as the British Olympic
Association is concerned that when Clearing the Bar is
presented to the Olympic Board and subsequently presented to Government
that it is agreed by all the summer Olympic governing bodies.
There will be no point in coming to a figure that says collectively
we can achieve fourth place in the Olympic medal table in 2012,
if suddenly hockey or athletics, for the sake of argument, woke
up the following morning and said "Hang on a second, we are
not going to be able to contribute in the way you would like us
to do on that budget". It would need to be robust, it would
need to be capable of detailed analysis by this Committee and
other committees in Parliament. It requires a significant amount
of work which is underway at the moment. I emphasise that it is
being undertaken in partnership with UK Sport, that is right and
proper as they have significant expertise which has been very
helpful to us in this process. We are on target to complete that
work, Chairman, and we intend to make sure that it is presented
on time. It is a budget, as I say, that must be robust and bought
into by the Olympic governing bodies which ultimately will be
responsible for performance on the day. The final point I would
make in answer to your question, Mike, is that consistent funding
is essential. We cannot have the situation whereby a governing
body receives funding one year and maybe gets what they are expecting
in year two but then loses out in funding in year three. If we
are going to compete to come fourth, and we believe that is a
realistic target to achieve, it is a tough stretch but it is realistic—it
should be a tough stretch but it must be realistic—then
we need consistent funding over the next six years. That is absolutely
essential. If we are going to contract with the best coaches in
the world, if we are going to provide the best sport facilities,
that base line budget must be agreed and the governing bodies
must be confident that there will not be a move away from that
base line budget in recruiting the staff necessary to move from
tenth to fourth in the medal table. That is the current position.
We are working hard both within the BOA as well as with UK Sport
and with outside experts to make sure that model is robust and
that Clearing the Bar will achieve not only what it says
but be widely accepted by your Committee and the sporting world
in this country.
Q219 Mr Hall: You do not receive
any Government funding nor commercial funding, licence fees, various
other means of income. There is going to be clearly a substantial
increase in expenditure on getting our Olympic team ready for
2012. Are you expecting DCMS to come up with that money or are
you expecting the Lottery to come up with the money or are you
expecting these income sources to come from elsewhere? Have you
looked at trying to engage in more sponsorship on the back of
the Olympic bid?
Lord Moynihan: I described the
funding that is required in Clearing the Bar as base line
funding. It is expected that that baseline funding will be a combination
of Lottery funding and Treasury funding. However, it is critically
important that we continue to access sponsorship opportunities
within the constraints of the agreement that the BOA has reached
with LOCOG. It is important that we make sure that the governing
bodies maximise the funding they can generate both from private
sources and from sponsorship, again within the very clear constraints
that the Mayor outlined just now in terms of the contract. Clearing
the Bar has the baseline figure which is expected to come
from Lottery funding and Treasury funding, it is clearly a matter
for Government to determine the allocation of those resources.
That is one of the reasons why it is so important for us to work
in close collaboration both with UK Sport and the DCMS, which
we are doing.
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