Examination of Witnesses (Questions 300-319)
OFCOM
13 DECEMBER 2005
Q300 Chairman: I am aware of that!
Mr Carter: I am sure you are!
You are absolutely right, I think the driving force behind the
Government's decision, which we clearly support, is that over
and above the financial benefits of releasing the spectrum, and
over and above the benefits of what services they can put in that
spectrum, over and above even the benefits of providing people
with a free-to-air choice, what they are trying to achieve is
that when you come out of the other side of this project you do
not have, however insignificantly, people who are left behind
as we move from an analogue provision of service to a digital
provision of service. That seems to us to be an absolutely appropriate
Government and public policy; that people both have choice and
are not excluded, not least because there are certain portions
of society for whom television services or services provided through
television are extremely important, not just for comfort and communication
but, in some instances, for significant services. I am sure that
as we work our way through that, and you can identify what that
residual few thousand individuals or few thousands households
are (and I suspect that is what it will end up being, a few thousand),
the unit cost of providing them with some alternative form of
service will be a relatively small part of this project.
Mr Bensberg: Just one thing about
this 98.5% and any difference between now and the future, what
we expect is that most people in most parts of the country will
have the same level of service that they currently have, and that
would include Perthshire (which Stephen might be pleased to hear);
but the big planning problem we have got to face is the fact that
the interference from the continent and Ireland will be different;
the pattern will be different because they are going digital as
well. What that means is, when you are planning coverage models
you take into account what is coming in from other countries.
Most of the problems we are expecting are people who are going
to get interference from France, Holland, Belgium and Ireland
so therefore the south-east coast of England is a critical area
of that. One of the ways we hope we are solving that is to propose
some new relays which the broadcasters are going to adopt to infill
those small gaps of coverage. It is a very localised problem.
We are very aware of where most of the issues are going to arrive
and we will be spending a lot of time between now and 2012, which
is when these areas are going to go, to try and get the best possible
solution for them.
Q301 Alan Keen: The Chairman mentioned
should there not be somebody with the overall responsibility and
that is something I wanted to mention. It concerns me a little
bit that Digital UK's job is to make sure that technically the
switch-off and the switch-on works properly and we are not worried
about finding houses that cannot suddenly get a signal which got
one before the switch-off. That appears to be the major problem.
Is there somebody with a specific responsibility for looking ahead
and trying to help these people who are going to be the last ones
who will be reluctant to go to digital? Is the responsibility
split in Digital UK between the technical people who are responsible
for making sure that works (and that is the biggest problem) and
is there somebody in Digital UK who has that specific responsibility
for looking at that small core of people who will be the most
reluctant to switchover?
Mr Carter: Again, I am sure that
Digital UK will give you more detail and colour on that. My understanding
is that they have nine very specific work streams within their
programme, one of which is focussed on that particular area. I
would not describe it as a split responsibility; I would describe
it as a shared responsibility. One of the organisations that they
share it with is the independent consumer panel, which is rather
confusingly called the Ofcom Consumer Panel which does not heighten
one's understanding of its independence; but it is independent
of us; we do not appoint it; and its job is to hold us to account
and, indeed, to deal with some of the issues around exclusion
or lack of participation amongst consumers in policies that are
in the communications area. I know that Digital UK have already
developed a working programme with the Consumer Panel to ensure
early on that there is an understanding of those individuals and
groups who might either be unwilling to participate or might feel
excluded, to try and devise programmes early on to encourage their
participation. That is a very real and live work stream now, today;
it is not for some time in the future.
Q302 Alan Keen: It has already been
mentioned, David Elstein was very critical and I remember saying
to the people representing consumers, particularly older people,
that they should be in charge of the switchover. I did not mean
that as an insult to Digital UK or Ofcom, but I mentioned it because
they were the ones who were raising the problems that will come
right at the very end, or hopefully we will identify them before
we get to the end. I think I have said this on another occasion,
but there are always going to be old people who have no family
but if we targeted the families and younger members of families
who have got older relatives then we need to involve as many people
as possible to help with the individual switchover, long before
the actual final switch-off. You must have put some thought into
that?
Mr Carter: We have indeed. We
would agree with that. I do not want to over-encroach on Digital
UK's territory, but I think there is a substantial amount of work
you can do in family participation and broader family participation
and the voluntary groups, and you can carry an awful lot of people
along without necessarily relying on their own individual direct
participation. That does not mean, however, that there will not
be some individuals who are not caught by that, so you also have
to make sure you have a programme that does identify those individuals
who are not either in institutional care, do not have broader
families or have not got some voluntary organisation which will
find a way of solving this. There will be a small number but you
can, as you rightly say, do a lot of work in advance to minimise
that. Going back to a point that Mr Evans raised earlier, we will
learn region by region; and whilst clearly there are distinctions
from Border to Granada in many areas, there are lessons about
how, for example, you deal with the older population which are
very transferable from region to region. There will be some practical
learning lessons you can roll out.
Q303 Alan Keen: You mentioned care
homes, but in multiple occupied units it is not only people in
care but you have also got people who are in large blocks of flats
even in city centres who cannot get digital satellite broadcasts
and they rely on cable to a great extent. Are efforts being made
here?
Mr Carter: Yes, there are. Multi-dwelling
units are a particular work stream.
Mr Richards: There is a specific
work stream in that area. It is something we are talking to Digital
UK about. There is a lot of discussion in that area. It is one
of the issues that is coming up in the Bolton trial in discussion
with the local authorities. There is a big relationship here with
local authorities and getting them as part of the debate and discussion.
It is unresolved at present, but it is a work stream that people
are looking into very, very carefully. There are multiple ways
of tackling it and you need to look at it on a case-by-case basis.
Again, given the time we have available and the commitment of
the project to succeed and the resourcing, there is no reason
in our view at the moment why, given the time available, we should
not be able to resolve those problems. Are they resolved today?
No, but they need to be worked through over time.
Q304 Alan Keen: Have you thought
about approaches to the press? The press can either be hypercritical
to make headlines or they can be part of the campaign to help
people understand what is happening.
Mr Carter: That is a very good
point. I think some of them are behind us. Putting accusations
to one side, let us draw the analogy of the Olympic bid. I do
not know this for a fact but I am pretty certain that the people
who were participants and key players in the Olympic bid spent
quite a bit of time with the media encouraging them of the merits
of the bid. Why? Because I suspect picking up your daily press
cuttings on an international basis, if you are a member of the
IOC, and reading newspapers published in the United Kingdom saying
that the Olympic bid is a dreadful idea and it is going to be
a disaster is unlikely to imbue you with confidence in giving
the bid to London. I think the same principle applies on digital
switchover. That does not mean that there should not be appropriate
scrutiny. Going back to the questions that were being asked, that
it does not mean there should not be the glaring spotlight of,
"Is this appropriate resource; is it being well run; are
there weaknesses in the analysis of do you go to 96%, 97% or 98%?"
All of those are very legitimate questions. My own view, and clearly
we are biased, is there are two separate questions: one, should
this be done? Is providing universal free-to-air digital television
as an option for people in a household a desirable decision? We
have a very clear view on this. That is a different question from:
is it being well done? I think separating those two would be a
very sensible way forward in the public commentary but, as I say,
we are biased on this.
Q305 Alan Keen: I will finish by
testing your confidence. You mentioned the Olympics, what decision
has been taken: are you going to switch off or switch on before
the Olympics so everyone can benefit from the wonderful digital
presentation; or are you cautious and going to switch off after
the Olympics in London?
Mr Carter: I think it would be
accurate to say that the Secretary of State for Culture, Media
and Sport was very aware of the Olympic issues; and on the current
programme I think the plan is that the transition in and around
London is done before the Olympics; but the timetable is constructed
so that if we were to hit any significant issues that would be
manageable.
Q306 Janet Anderson: Could we just
turn to the issue of aerials. In your evidence you noted that
a small proportion of existing rooftop aerials "and many
more existing portable aerials" would be unlikely to be able
to receive an acceptable digital signal, even after switchover.
I know you are doing some research into that and I wonder if you
could just tell us a bit about that research.
Mr Bensberg: The key thing about
aerials is that, at the moment, they are not all able to get digital,
as I am sure most of your constituents are aware. At switchover
we are aiming to use the same frequencies as the analogue signals
are using and, therefore, the current aerials in general should
work for everybody. However, we did some work about two years
ago which identified that for about 10% of households in the United
Kingdom their aerials currently are not up to the job of receiving
analogue service. That 10% is the issue we are concerned with
going forward to switchover; because if they do not work very
well now they probably will not work very well with future digital
services. Therefore, it is important that those households get
their aerials up to spec. That was the main evidence we had.
Q307 Janet Anderson: Are you talking
about rooftop aerials?
Mr Bensberg: I am talking about
rooftop aerials specifically.
Mr Carter: Are you talking about
set-top aerials or rooftop aerials?
Q308 Janet Anderson: Both actually.
Mr Bensberg: The 10% issue is,
with people's rooftop aerials, a number of them are not good enough
now for analogue. They get very poor picture quality now for analogue.
At switchover they will get similarly poor quality. With digital
it is more unforgiving and, therefore, the advice we would be
proposing is that they need to upgrade. Set-top aerials is a more
demanding issue because set-top aerials have to operate inside
the house with walls, and you lose the benefit of height and everything
else. We have done a lot of research asking people about the current
quality of their pictures for set-top aerials. What they are saying
is for probably up to almost half of them the quality of the set-top
aerial and the quality of the reception they have got will not
be good enough for digital terrestrial at switchover. A significant
proportion of people using set-top aerials will have to get a
better set-top aerial, which is quite possible, or connect to
the main rooftop aerial. One further thing I can say briefly on
that is there has been some research done by the Digital Television
Group on the quality of set-top aerials and 90% of them really
are not very good; a very few are reasonable; and one or two are
pretty good. One of the issues we would need to be looking forward
is that people are steered towards the good ones to replace them,
because actually it is quite cheap for an aerial, £20 to
get a new one and it is quite an easy thing to do. We can work
with manufacturers of these things, identify the good ones and
get people to do it. It is a fairly simple task and most people
can get a new one. A proportion, maybe 10% or 20%, would probably
have to connect to the rooftop and, therefore, that would need
a bit of cabling; but again not massive amounts of money. The
research we are doing is to dig further into that, and we are
trying to understand how to identify who needs the work doing;
how to advise them on what the options are; how to get it done
before switchover so there is not a rush at the end.
Q309 Janet Anderson: Do you think
people are generally aware or will become aware of the problems
they are likely to face as a result of the aerials they depend
on?
Mr Bensberg: I think the interesting
outcome of the research was that most people who had poor pictures
were aware they had poor pictures—in other words they volunteered
when we asked them, "Do you think your pictures are good
or bad?" People who had bad pictures knew they had bad pictures.
Quite a high proportion had done something about it but not necessarily
enough to get the thing going. I think there is a lot of knowledge
there, and the key thing is using that knowledge to get people
to go to the next stage.
Mr Carter: One of the things you
do see as a feature of the market today is that people who have
poor reception or are excluded from universal free-to-air channel
coverage, for example they get Channel Five, you see in those
areas there is a much higher take-up of satellite. If you go to
Wales, satellite take-up in Wales is considerably higher than
it is in some of the denser urban centres where DTT coverage today
is higher. As Greg said, the user experience—people have
quite a high understanding of what it means for them; and some
people have either made active choices to find some alternative
form of provision or understand the limitations of their current
set, set aerial or roof aerial.
Q310 Janet Anderson: That probably
applies to my constituency where we cannot get Channel Five. Could
I just turn to one other thing: we have had the pilot project
in Wales which seems to have gone very well, and I know there
is another one proposed for Bolton. Do you think it would be helpful
to have a number of other pilot projects to inform the process
as we go along?
Mr Carter: Why not.
Mr Bensberg: I think possibly
in one sense the main thing is reviewing what Bolton says; and
Bolton is very specifically looking at vulnerable groups, elderly
people etc, so it is a very specific target audience. I think
it is quite realistic and quite a good thing, before we actually
go for a complete region, to do a smaller region. I think this
is very much Digital UK's work and a strategic approach. They
need to assess what people's understanding of digital switchover
is, and it is probably quite good to test that at some point.
We have no fixed views on that at this stage.
Mr Richards: One of the key characteristics
about how we have structured the timetable is to anticipate learning
by doing. The more you experiment and learn through trials the
more you do learn. This is one of these things that has not been
done before. Despite people who try to draw comparisons with Channel
Five and all sorts of other things, it is actually different.
It has not been done before. The Ferryside trial and the Llansteffan
trial have taught us a very great deal. The Bolton trial will
teach us a great deal again. I think it is a very interesting
idea that we, Digital UK and others should be considering, whether
we should have more small trials to learn as much as we can before
2008 before the full rollout.
Q311 Janet Anderson: Is that a decision
for Government to decide there are going to be more trials; or
is it a decision for you?
Mr Carter: I think that is a programme
management question and therefore is a decision for Digital UK.
As I am sure they will explain and we have touched on already,
rightly there are overlaps. As I have said, in principle it is
a good idea. The thing you have to do with trials is you have
to work out in advance what is the one thing you are particularly
trying to test in a trial, because you can cover so much ground
if it is in a small base. As you say, the Bolton test is particularly
looking at some of the vulnerable questions. It is an interesting
idea, to think what other parts of the programme might it be worth
running a trial, to look particularly at, but Digital UK will
have a view on that.
Q312 Paul Farrelly: When we went
to Berlin we heard it had all run very, very smoothly. Clearly
to us, in Berlin there were two big differences from the market
here: one is that a lot more people had cable and satellite there;
and secondly, the process was managed for them, when there was
a large rented population, by the big landlords who took responsibility
for dealing with the companies. Perhaps we might invite some more
evidence, and look at evidence from Italy where the pattern is
different in terms of aerial reception. Here we are all conscious
we are trying to minimise the opportunity for cowboys or charlatans.
Cowboys and charlatans work best where there are the opportunities
for confusion. Here, how will people be able to tell whether their
aerial is good enough for digital—because it is only the
fact there is analogue and that is not boosting the digital signal
at the moment that is causing the interference; or whether they
need to have their aerial replaced? There is an element of confusion
there.
Mr Carter: I think you are absolutely
right. Air traffic to Berlin has increased as a result of this
policy decision. We have been over there as well, and there are
some lessons, although it is a very different experience and a
very different market structure. As you say, with cable satellite
the prior positions are different. It was an interesting experiment
but not particularly transferable would be our headline on the
Berlin experience. I have to say, you are absolutely right on
the confusion question. For me, that is another reason that supports
making a prior decision to do it and then having a programme plan
that runs to it because, absent that, the opportunity for rogues
and charlatans to make mischief is much greater. As part of the
Programme Management Group, and I know you have already heard
from the retailers, there is a substantial involvement from the
retailers and the supply chain, there is an accreditation process
to try and avoid confusion either in-store when you are making
purchase decisions or, indeed, when you are trying to get your
aerial done so you do not find yourself in a situation where someone
is taking advantage of your lack of knowledge or confusion. I
think that is quite a strong argument for the advanced programme
planning, that is my own view. On the specifics around how you
will know whether or not your aerial works, Greg, do you want
to talk to that?
Mr Bensberg: This is the research
I mentioned earlier on. We have carried out some but we want to
do a lot more to refine our knowledge. What we have used so far
is giving people a picture of a noisy analogue television screen
because what we have assessed is if your analogue picture is below
a certain quality, we know the balance between the digital power
and the analogue power at switchover and, therefore, we can pretty
well calculate if the quality of analogue is below a certain level
now then, the digital with its new power probably would not work.
We have given people a picture of a noisy TV screen and asked
them to judge whether theirs is better or worse than that all
the time, some of the time or occasionally. We are using that
as a way of trying to understand, therefore, whether they would
need an aerial. We are going to do some field visits to assess
whether that is true, whether those margins of error are in that
and whether there is any other means of doing it. One thought
we have got is Teletext; if you can get Teletext now it probably
indicates you have got a good picture. If your sound quality does
not buzz or crackle that is another good property. We are looking
at a number of ways in which people can do this themselves, the
call line can tell you "Look at this", or we can send
a picture of a screen, "If it is worse than that you probably
need some advice and help".
Mr Carter: Can I just add one
rider, if I may, Chairman. Understandably, this conversation today
and, indeed, I suspect a lot of your inquiry and scrutiny is around
the digital terrestrial option and the management of switchover,
and that is entirely appropriate, but it is critical to realise,
and it will be a central part of the programme and we are both
firm and dogmatic on this question, that we are not expressing
a preference for one platform over the other. One of the reasons
why this policy decision is capable of being made is partly because
of the success of digital television take-up through satellite
and cable already. Indeed, in another place in Ofcom's responsibilities,
one of the things that we have been trying to do is to drive down
wholesale broadband prices in order to encourage competition in
alternative broadband services, particularly video broadband services.
You are beginning to see IPTV in the jargon, television delivered
over alternative distribution platforms. That may sound like a
very nascent service today in 2005 but I would make a prediction
that in 2012-13 as an alternative platform choice for many, many
millions of consumers that will be there as an option. It will
not just be the aerial question, there will be other very legitimate
options which many millions of consumers have already made a choice
in favour of and I suspect that will only accelerate. It does
not change our view that providing a free-to-air platform gives
people the choice but we are not expressing a preference over
that choice. If I am allowed to say so, I would have thought this
Committee would not want to do that either.
Q313 Paul Farrelly: I think what
people are generally concerned about is that advanced bit of kit
there that has cost 60 quid that might be perfectly deliverable
to Edna's home down the road but if she gets charged 250 quid
by some cowboy to twiddle with her aerial it is—
Mr Carter: It defeats the purpose.
That is absolutely right.
Q314 Mr Sanders: Continental interference
is a big issue in some parts of the UK. In the South West it seems
that you have full terrestrial on one transmitter and then the
next transmitter does not have all the channels and the next transmitter
does as you go up the coast. On the other side of the coast in
France it is the other way round. Clearly there has been some
discussion about who can broadcast on what wavelength. Is that
discussion taking place with regard to French services going digital?
That is the first question. Will we be left with the same deal
where we have one transmitter good, one transmitter not complete,
one transmitter everything, next one not complete?
Mr Carter: Again, I will start
and then Greg can come in. As I was trying to illustrate on this
chart, you pick up on a very important issue which is the international
co-ordination. We have a number of geographical neighbours—Belgium,
Holland and France in particular—where there is an overlap
and this is an issue for the South West, also for Suffolk and
other parts of the country. There is a significant event in the
international calendar which happens in the early part of 2006,
which is the Regional Radio Conference, where essentially there
is a whole series of somewhere between discussions and negotiations,
is how you would describe them, between different countries and
we represent the UK in those conversations about how you deal
with the overlap and interference questions. Indeed, it is very
germane to what you then do with the released spectrum because
what you may or may not do with the released spectrum is also
part of those international conversations. That is an issue in
particular geographies. The absolute outcome of those conversations
we could not tell you the answer to today, other than we do recognise
that they are real issues in certain parts of the geography more
than in others.
Mr Bensberg: Stephen is quite
right. The key thing about the RRC is it will lock in all of Europe
to a digital switchover strategy and that is very important in
terms of timing but also in terms of giving us confidence that
the plan we have been developing over the last four years is going
to be agreed with our neighbours, because if they do not agree
with it we are in trouble. What we have been doing over the last
two years is making sure that that risk of non-agreement, or minimal
levels of disagreement, is reduced by effectively showing them
our plan and them showing us their plan and making sure they are
consistent. We have made a couple of submissions to the ITU in
advance of the Conference, the last one was at the end of October
and another one is planned for the end of January, where effectively
we are building up our level of agreement about the plans we have
got. The predictions we make of that coverage are based upon these
emerging agreements. At this stage, as Steven said, we cannot
say for sure what the RRC will deliver in May or June of next
year, our confidence level has been rising over the last six months
or so that what we are proposing for the broadcasters to adopt
and what the French, the Dutch, the Irish and the Belgians are
proposing are broadly consistent and we can move forward on that.
Q315 Paul Farrelly: Although you
cannot obviously predict what the outcome of that is going to
be, is the solution likely to be that on either one side of the
Channel or the other somebody will not be able to broadcast on
full power?
Mr Bensberg: I think the aim is
to get a balance. It will not be an either/or final decision,
that the French have it or we have it. If there are restrictions
required to protect some French viewers the UK broadcasters might
have to adapt that by putting more complex antenna on a transmitter.
Those are the sorts of compromises we are looking at here rather
than, "We have it and you do not".
Q316 Paul Farrelly: Is digital more
directional in transmitting than analogue?
Mr Bensberg: In terms of the radio
waves it is exactly the same as analogue, the same physics apply.
Q317 Paul Farrelly: So a more sophisticated
antenna is not going to solve the problem of ghosting or no picture
at all if the signal is not strong enough and has to be restricted
in order to avoid crossover?
Mr Bensberg: This is the issue
I mentioned earlier on. Certainly on the South and East Coasts
there are specific areas of the country where we are expecting
the incoming interference not to blank out but to make the coverage
of certain areas much more difficult. That is why we are proposing
a number of new relays in those areas, in effect to infill those
deficiencies. There is a balance of making sure that we have got
the best possible plan for our six multiplexes plus protection
for the clear spectrum consistent with what they are doing and
also some infilling to maximise the outcome.
Q318 Paul Farrelly: That infilling
would be new transmitters that are not there are the moment?
Mr Bensberg: Yes, a small number
but essential to cover the Suffolk, Essex and Kent coastlines.
Q319 Paul Farrelly: Which you will
need to get planning permission for?
Mr Bensberg: That is part of the
build responsibility of the transmission companies to deliver
that. They are aware of that and they are working on that now.
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