Examination of Witnesses (Questions 51
- 59)
TUESDAY 14 MARCH 2006
NATIONAL TRUST
Chairman: Good morning everybody. Welcome
to the second session of the Select Committee's inquiry into protecting
and preserving our heritage. We have a number of different witnesses
this morning. We are also aware that some witnesses are under
a degree of time pressure and so we will attempt to move through
the questions relatively swiftly. Can I start off by welcoming
the National Trust, which proudly claims its title as the largest
conservation body in Europe, and particularly Tony Burton, the
Director of Policy, and Gregor Hutcheon, the Assistant Director
of Policy.
Q51 Alan Keen: You say that there
is huge popularity for heritage. Would you like to elaborate on
that for us?
Mr Burton: I think there are three
ways in which we would highlight the enormous public affection
for interest in a commitment to the historic environment. One
is simply looking at the metrics of people's willingness to join
things and to participate in things. As we have just heard, the
National Trust is the largest conservation body in Europe. We
have 3.3 million members. In recent years we have been growing
at a rate of 100,000 members a year. That is a very large number
of people who are interested and engaged. 800,000 people enjoy
heritage open days each year which is the largest cultural event
in the country. DCMS's own figures show that something like two
in three adults visit places of historic interest every year.
That is simply the most popular thing that DCMS is responsible
for. It is not just that people get out and enjoy it, it is that
they are willing to give time and money to it. We have over 40,000
volunteers and they contribute nearly a third of our staff time.
When Tyntesfield was under threat something like 77,000 people
contributed £8 million in 100 days to save it. People care
passionately for these places. It is the stuff of local planning
and local politics that people will get engaged and involved in
such projects. There is a visceral affection that people have
for the historic environment. Something which may run through
this whole inquiry is the need to help people articulate that,
to express that and recognise it more effectively in public policy
and public priorities.
Q52 Alan Keen: I represent the western
part of the borough of Hounslow. In the eastern part we have got
Syon House, Chiswick House, Osterley, Hogarth's House and so on
and yet at my end there is very little. How do you think we should
involve the people at my end? We have some very active groups
involved to help protect these attractions. Chiswick House has
just received a lot of money recently. I know there will be a
lot of people in my constituency who are particularly interested
in heritage. How do you think we can involve more people locally
rather than leaving it just to the middle classes to look after
the major sites in the borough of Hounslow?
Mr Burton: I think it is very
important to emphasise that our historic environment is not about
grand houses, special places and expert appreciation alone but
about what is within five minutes of everyone's doorstep. The
historic environment is an integral part of the quality of life
of everyone and people care passionately about what is in their
neighbourhood and what it is that is close to them. There is a
combination of skills and techniques which we believe could be
deployed more effectively to enable people to express that interest.
Mr Hutcheon: In Osterley, for
example, we are actively engaging the local Asian community in
a number of different ways. There is a very lively and active
flower arranging group of local Asian women who are growing the
flowers in the gardens of the grounds and then displaying them
in the property when it is open to the public. We are involving
young people through learning and outreach and education programmes.
We receive over half a million school visits per year and we currently
subsidise those to the tune of £10 per visit. We are looking
at ways in which we can develop our volunteering offer. Tony has
already mentioned that we have an army of over 40,000 volunteers
that help run and manage the business for the Trust. It is also
about creating new volunteering opportunities so they can do all
sorts of diverse and fun things. We did a review last year and
one of the most surprising jobs that we had on offer was toad
patrolling, which was helping young toads across the road! We
offer local magicians at properties. We offer practical conservation
on properties. You can help archive materials. There is a whole
range of things where we can offer interesting and often rewarding
experiences to get people more actively involved.
Q53 Alan Keen: It is pretty obvious
to me that young people are really interested in history and the
environment. As with a lot of issues, such as drama and sport,
there is a break in that link between school and later life as
kids find out about other interesting things in their teens. Do
you work at breaking that link? I am sure we must lose a lot of
people, as other parts of culture do, at that stage.
Mr Hutcheon: Yes, there is definitely
a life cycle to volunteering—typically with a peak maybe
earlier on in life and then a falling away whilst you have other
commitments elsewhere and then more active engagement later in
life. Certainly the profile of our volunteers would reflect that
pattern with the vast majority being well over 50 years old. We
are now looking at opportunities to engage school leavers and
gap year students. We are working with the Russell Commission
at the moment on developing youth opportunities for either longer-term
volunteering or taster sessions where they can just try it and
see whether they like it.
Q54 Alan Keen: You are critical of
DCMS and yet a lot of the words in the report in 2001 are almost
the same as the words you use in your evidence. Why are you critical
of them?
Mr Burton: When asked about the
historic environment DCMS can come out with the right words in
the right order but it is not part of the narrative of the Department
as a whole. If it is talking in other areas of responsibility
it is not making connections to the historic environment. We work
across the range of interests of DCMS, particularly tourism and
other areas and so we see other faces of the Department. It is
not visible to anything like the extent to which we believe it
needs to be when we are dealing with issues across government
as a whole. We deal with a very large number of government departments
and, to be honest, DCMS is the least visible and the least effective
in promoting its interests in this area in terms of mainstreaming
it with other priorities elsewhere across Whitehall.
Q55 Alan Keen: Are you really saying
that there is a greater problem with a loss of links in DCMS itself
rather than between kids at school and adulthood and the departments
are not linked together on heritage?
Mr Burton: We hosted the launch
of the Outside the Classroom Manifesto from DfES which in our
minds is an absolutely central initiative in terms of school trips
and engaging youngsters in their natural and historic environment.
The potential of that across the DCMS portfolio is immense but
it is just not as visible as it needs to be in the discussions
we are having, in realising the potential of that kind of opportunity
which has got a very strong drive elsewhere in Government to advance
some of the agendas within DCMS itself.
Q56 Mr Hall: We anticipate seeing
the Heritage White Paper in May or June. The genesis of the White
Paper is to implement the Heritage Protection Review. Are you
happy that that is the genesis of the White Paper, and would you
like to see more in it?
Mr Hutcheon: We are very happy
with the genesis of the White Paper. We understand its priority
focus on delivering the Heritage Protection Review, which we very
much welcome, but we actually think, for the reasons that Tony
has been outlining, that the profile and understanding of the
contribution of the historic environment across government has
not necessarily been understood to the degree that we would like.
An initiative like the Heritage White Paper is a rare opportunity
for that profile to be better articulated and for it to be championed
in ways that resonate beyond DCMS as well as within DCMS. We would
argue that a narrowly drawn Heritage White Paper which is simply
about delivering legislation would be a missed opportunity. We
would rather see it slightly more broadly set—re-articulating
some of the very strong and meaningful words which were in the
previous White Paper, which we do support, whilst refreshing and
re-energising the debate which was started back in 2001. We feel
as though we have lost that energy.
Q57 Mr Hall: Does that not misunderstand
the White Paper process because the White Paper process is to
say this is what we intend to do in the legislation? We should
already have had the discussion about the broader principles of
what is being taken forward.
Mr Burton: I think that is a particular
construction for White Papers. It is not our experience across
much of the rest of Whitehall to use White Papers purely for legislative
purposes. They are also a very important vehicle for expressing
policy and direction.
Q58 Mr Hall: That is basically the
Green Paper's job, is it not?
Mr Burton: The Green Paper was
also focused in on teeing up legislation. We think the legislation
is really important, but there are some elements of it which could
be extended. We are pressing for greater recognition of the Register
of Historic Parks and Gardens in the legislation and the settings
of historic places so their surroundings are recognised. In a
sense it slightly reflects the DCMS's approach that it is taking
quite a narrow perspective on the potential of the White Paper
to move its agenda forward. It is very important for the legislation,
but there is more to the advancement of the historic environment
than the Heritage Protection Review. We are looking for an updating
of the policy framework given that the Government has moved on
in the last five years and yet Government policy on the historic
environment has not.
Q59 Mr Hall: You have given a general
view about what you would like to see as across Government approaches
to heritage. Is there anything else that you would like to see?
Mr Hutcheon: There are two things
that we would like to see in terms of additional legislation.
The first one is protection for historic parks and gardens where
we have seen significant losses in the last century. I think it
was research that was published last year which showed that between
1918 and 1995 almost half the area of historic parkland in England
had been lost during that period and that loss is continuing.
It is being lost to development, changes in agriculture and the
creation of golf courses. These things are all undermining what
are very defining landscapes of England and what make England
so distinctive. The second area is the settings of historic sites,
important sites. We have direct experience of the erosion of the
quality of the setting of our properties, which can be a small
scale incremental change on the boundaries of properties very
often on the fringes of towns. One example we have is Kedleston
Hall on the outskirts of Derby where that important landscape
and historic property is being damaged by small scale incremental
changes as the town has expanded. Those are two areas where we
do not think the current proposals in the Heritage Protection
Review will address sufficiently the weaknesses in the protection.
Mr Burton: The legislation needs
to be accompanied by guarantees that the resources will be available
to develop the skills and competencies of those who are going
to be tasked with delivering it. Just as the recent planning legislation
was accompanied by a planning delivery grant to ensure those resources
were available and they were linked to outcomes and improvements
in quality, so we believe the Heritage Protection Review needs
to have the resources to ensure it is going to be delivered because
without those resources we are not sure that the people are going
to be available who can actually implement what is the more sophisticated,
if better, system.
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