Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200
- 206)
TUESDAY 28 MARCH 2006
THE REV'D
CANON MICHAEL
AINSWORTH, MS
PAULA GRIFFITHS,
THE VERY
REV'D
DAVID BRINDLEY,
THE VERY
REV'D
COLIN SLEE
AND MR
TREVOR COOPER
Q200 Mr Sanders: From your answers
English Heritage is a good thing, but are you concerned about
the future of English Heritage perhaps not having the same level
of resources available?
Ms Griffiths: Yes.
Q201 Mr Sanders: Is that something
that you would want to get across to us?
Ms Griffiths: Absolutely, very
much so.
Mr Brindley: While we do feel
they are a good thing—they are sensitive towards the cathedrals
and the churches and we have good dialogue with them—they
are under-resourced and that is putting them under stress and
therefore there is a danger their quality of work will decline
because they feel stressed because their resources are declining.
Canon Ainsworth: Or it is easiest
to say no.
Mr Cooper: My estimate is that
their income has dropped by 7% in real terms since the year 2000.
It also makes it difficult for them to be creative. Whilst they
feel constrained to continue with the current grant scheme because
it is obviously doing good work, there is little spare money to
try out new schemes we can all think of which need piloting and
a certain amount of cash to get going.
Q202 Chairman: It is encouraging
to hear your praise for English Heritage. Not all of our evidence
has taken the same view. We have received a memorandum from the
Archdeacon of Suffolk which is very critical and he cites two
examples of churches which need adaptation to facilitate wider
community use, but English Heritage have stopped that on the basis
that it is changing the nature of the building and they need to
preserve the historic nature. His finishes his evidence by saying
that: "Unless the Amenity Societies and English Heritage
are sympathetic and facilitate wider community use, we shall reach
a point where people will simply walk away from these buildings
in despair."
Mr Slee: That sentence says something
very interesting because it mentions the Amenity Societies and
certainly from the work we did on Southwark Cathedral for the
Millennium I had no difficulty with English Heritage and I do
believe that the key to that is the very early consultation and
working it through, but I had significant difficulty with the
Amenity Societies, who are voluntary, and have one particular
axe to grind usually. I would not be at all surprised if one examined
that sentence to find that both those things could be unpacked
with early consultation but presumably the parish clergy was probably
a bit awe-inspiring for them and therefore was put to one side
and the Amenity Societies have a particular axe to grind.
Canon Ainsworth: English Heritage
is arranged regionally so one might well find different responses
in different regions coming across.
Ms Griffiths: That is very fair.
The early consultation is important. There will be a few cases
where English Heritage, even after early consultation, after a
long discussion may feel "This particular change really is
not sympathetic to the building and we do not want to support
it, but it is important to realise that English Heritage are not
the body which grants permission. Under the Church's system those
alterations to the church will ultimately be authorised or not
authorised under the faculty system by the Chancellor. English
Heritage and the other societies are consultees, that is fine;
their views have to be taken seriously, that is fine, but they
are not the final decision-maker.
Canon Ainsworth: But they do understand
the agenda in force.
Q203 Mr Hall: The Heritage Lottery
Fund and priorities: is there a dilemma or a dichotomy in the
church for accepting money derived from gambling to improve churches?
Mr Slee: That is easily answered
with what happened after Judas hanged himself.
Q204 Mr Hall: What happened before
when Jesus threw the gamblers out of the synagogue?
Mr Slee: They drew lots and chose
Matthias. Whenever anybody asks me about taking Lottery funding
for Southwark I simply respond by saying "The replacement
disciple was chosen by drawing lots, what is the problem?"
Q205 Mr Hall: That is an excellent
answer!
Mr Brindley: If I could give a
slightly different answer: yes, there are some churches who would
find difficulties with that but the majority do not.
Q206 Mr Hall: I am on the side of
the majority by the way.
Mr Brindley: I have just accepted
a fairly large donation from Vosper Thornycroft. Should one accept
money created by those who build boats? There are lots of grey
areas to accepting money.
Canon Ainsworth: Some feel that
it is a lottery at both ends.
Chairman: This takes us into a whole
new debate and perhaps we should draw a line under it there. Thank
you very much indeed.
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