Examination of Witnesses (Questions 200-219)
MR DON
TOUHIG, BRIGADIER
ANTHONY BRISTER,
MS LIZ
CASSIDY, MR
DAVID WADSWORTH
AND MS
KATHRYN FORSYTH
2 MAY 2006
Q200 Chairman: We will come on to
that.
Brigadier Brister: They attend
some local authority admission forums. We do all that we can to
help with this schooling issue. What more could be done? would
be your question, I would imagine.
Chairman: Brigadier Brister, can we stick
with the address issue, because it is a key issue. We will get
into some of the other detail in a moment or two. Robert Key has
a question on the address.
Q201 Robert Key: Thank you, Chairman.
Can you explain why it is not possible just to give a garrison
address or, indeed, a unit address. Surely, even if you are coming
from Germany or Cyprus you know where the garrison headquarters
is, including its postcode, and it is not going to make that much
difference in terms of a catchment area for a primary school in
reality, is it?
Brigadier Brister: Yes. The posting
order tells you the unit, and therefore the garrison, to which
you are going. But if you are posted, say, to Upavon, you could
be accommodated in a number of areas, which would drive you towards
very different primary schools which you would be seeking to send
your children to. The area is a help, and it can start you off,
but the address of where you will live remains particularly important.
Q202 Robert Key: In an education
authority like Wiltshire—and you mentioned Wiltshire, which
I know about too from my constituency, where Wiltshire operates
the service schools allowance system, which depends upon the number
of service children going to a particular primary school—the
flexibility is there within that system, I would have thought,
for Wiltshire's Education Authority to be able to accommodate
that flow of people in and out. It is a very imprecise art, and
even when they know the address of a quarter that a family is
going to there are still wide variations. I have been talking
this morning to a headmaster in Tidworth who says it is a real
problem for him: they have to guesstimate the numbers each year
and they cannot know precisely either how much money is needed
this year or the next year. Surely, is it not possible to come
to a rather more refined arrangement with the local education
authority?
Brigadier Brister: I think we
are moving on to the issue from the schools' perspective. Perhaps
we could stay just for now with the parents' perspective. In terms
of the parents and their choice of school and their ability to
try to get their child to the school of their choice, then their
particular home address that they will live at is of prime importance
to them. If my quarter is in Tidworth, I will probably prefer
to send my child to school in Tidworth even though I may be working
at Upavon. If my quarter is at Upavon, I would probably prefer
to send my child to a more local school. From the parental perspective,
the quarter address is of key importance.
Q203 Chairman: Let us suppose that
you manage to keep the four months' notice of posting, I think
the Defence Estates have a 15-day target to allocate an address.
Brigadier Brister: Yes.
Q204 Chairman: Which should surely
mean that there are three and a half months of notice that can
be given to families as to which address they are likely to go
to.
Brigadier Brister: Yes.
Q205 Chairman: Why is it so much
slower in so many cases?
Brigadier Brister: It is slower
in so many cases because . . . Of course, as you know, for the
Army anyway the target is no less than four months' notice for
65% of Army people who are posted. Obviously that is the minimum
target: the Army strives to go beyond the 65%. For those who do
not get the four months—which because of the pace of life
is not possible—then of course they have significantly more
difficulty. But, even with that time, if it is at the wrong time
of year—
Q206 Chairman: That is a different
issue. In general, it should be a minimum of three and a half
months.
Brigadier Brister: It is just
slightly less, is it not? Three months and a week, I suppose,
with 15 days. It is just under three and a half months. That is
what it should be for most people.
Mr Touhig: There is one point
I would like to emphasise which I am sure the Committee will appreciate.
It is not one-size-fits-all in terms of a posting. Postings could
be for a unit move, individual moves, compassionate moves, so
it is not possible to have an overall, one-size-fits-all approach
to it. But the targets are constantly under review and this is
one area where we are collaborating. You asked at the beginning,
Chairman, about a collaboration, working with DfES, and wondering
where we are working with DfES. We recognise that we cannot be
complacent. From the evidence you have already taken, we do need
to do more work and we appreciate that.
Brigadier Brister: May I add one
point? I should have said that when an individual receives his
or her posting order it is of course his or her responsibility
to apply for SFA. If, for whatever reason, they delay in making
that application—which of course can happen—then of
course the notification that they get of quarters becomes closer
to the move date.
Q207 Mr Hancock: Why should that
be a problem for the Army? Can the Army not also help in that
situation? Where somebody, who could be on operational duties
somewhere, gets told that they are going to move but for obvious
reasons they are preoccupied with the job they are doing at that
time, do you not, as the Army overall, have a responsibility to
ensure that those sort of questions are then taken up on their
behalf?
Brigadier Brister: Clearly we
have a responsibility to help our people in all the ways we can
but, inevitably, if some individuals delay putting in their applications,
we do not police all our people, whatever their rank, in every
aspect of their private life.
Mr Touhig: Very often the partner
will do this and perhaps get advice from one of the service families
as well, to say, "Look, my husband has been notified of a
posting. We need some help and advice". This is where we
will work collaboratively with the Families' Federations.
Q208 Chairman: Do the modern changes
of life, meaning that partners are usually working themselves,
make life more difficult?
Mr Touhig: Yes. I would like to
pay tribute to the role of the Families' Federations because they
fill a huge gap here in social support to families who sometimes
are vulnerable, and I have nothing but admiration for the work
they do in this way.
Q209 Mr Borrow: In civilian life,
families often have to make decisions in terms of accepting jobs
or moving around the key points in their children's education,
often around GCSEs and A levels. Obviously that is a little bit
more difficult for service families and I am interested in the
extent to which the MoD is able to take those pressure points
into account and recognise, if children are coming up to GCSEs
or A levels, that that is perhaps not the ideal time to start
moving a particular service family.
Mr Touhig: I appreciate that is
an important point. It cannot always be taken into account. Of
course, I am sure colleagues here will realise that when you join
the Forces you are joining an organisation which is fairly mobile,
and moves are fairly frequent—as you have seen from the
evidence of the children, in particular, from the moves that they
have had in their lives. But, yes, we have a duty and a responsibility
to be as helpful and supportive as we possibly can. This is constantly
under review and we benefit from the advice given by the Families'
Federation. I am sure we are going to be informed by the report
of this Committee at the end of the day on this matter, which
might cause us to re-examine some things further that we have
not thought of. We do not have the fount of all knowledge in these
matters and your work will contribute to our ongoing evaluation.
Q210 Mr Borrow: Is there a system
in place which flags up service families in that situation when
it comes to doing postings? Is that knowledge readily available?
Brigadier Brister: The Army Personnel
Centre is responsible for posting people. Obviously the desk officers
there know their people and all factors are taken into account.
They cannot always be acted on, as you would understand, because
of the operational life that we lead, but it is the case if children
are on particularly the years which in exam courses lead into
GCSE or GCE (that is, AS and A level) that that is taken particularly
seriously, and if a family does have to move at that stage in
one of their children's lives then they are allowed to ask to
retain their quarter in the location that they are, so that the
child can continue with their course of study at the same school.
That is always looked on favourably and we try to help in those
circumstances.
Q211 Chairman: Is the definition
of what is a key point in a child's academic year quite restrictive?
Brigadier Brister: It is specifically
if they are on a course leading to public examinations.
Q212 Mr Hancock: Can I ask a couple
of questions about the role of the Army in giving support to the
family when the father may have been moved several weeks or months
before the family arrive, the family arrive and the husband is
not around because he may be on operations. What sort of support
is there available to the family then to ensure that the settling
in process, in particular the schooling issues, are dealt with?
Are there facilities available for fathers to get leave to be
present during that time?
Brigadier Brister: As you are
aware, the Army Welfare Service and the unit welfare officer support
families at these times in the broad range of activities. In terms
of specific schooling issues, then CEAS assists parents with selecting,
finding, gaining entry to a school. In terms of the service person
having leave in order to assist the family with settling in, this
really will vary from unit to unit, and if the family moves together
at the same time normally a service person will have leave when
they arrive in a new location. If he or she has moved ahead, then
they may or may not do so, but there is no specific policy. But
what I can say is that all of us in the Army always try to do
what we can to help our people but our ability to do so is sometimes
curtailed by the operational tempo of our lives.
Q213 Mr Hancock: You suggested in
answer to an earlier question from David that there was support
at appeals for parents who had selected a particular school. If
the appeal goes against the parents, I am interested to know on
what basis you would fight an appeal for a service family. If
you had several, would you prioritise? If there are several people
wanting to go to one school and they are all from service families,
I am interested to know how the system of prioritising kicks in.
I am also interested to know what you do to help them in the fall-out
of not getting a place in their preferred school, about offering
opportunities for maybe transport to another selected school which
might be some distance away.
Brigadier Brister: In terms of
assistance with admissions, in the first instance that is done
at both unit and local level and by CEAS. CEAS will assist with
the application. CEAS will advise the service parent of whether
they meet the admission criteria and on whether, therefore, they
should appeal if they do not get it, and then they will help them
with the case. If then they do not get the school of their choice,
of course we will help them try to find another school for their
children. In terms of whether we then provide transport if they
have to go to a school some distance away, I am afraid I do not
know the answer to that. As far as I know we do not. I am told
that we do not.
Q214 Mr Hancock: I want to ask one
other question about the issue of parental choice in these matters.
Do you have any information about the number of children of service
families who have been home tutored because that parents would
not accept what was available?
Brigadier Brister: I do not have
any information on that, sir.
Mr Touhig: That is something we
could write to the Committee about, if that helps.
Mr Hancock: I represent Portsmouth. We
have a number of issues in the area where families who have not
got their choice are disappointed and will not send their children
to the school that is available. That then poses some real issues
for them, particularly service families, where there are other
pressures on the parents as well as having to educate their children
at home.
Q215 Chairman: Minister, you have
offered to write to the Committee about that and I think it would
be very helpful if you could do so.
Mr Touhig: Yes, we will certainly
do that. Just to add, if it does help, Mr Chairman, in the discussions
we are having with DfES at the moment, we do recognise that there
is a problem with admissions. We are seeking to create greater
opportunity for choice for parents, recognising the difficulties
that we have. In fact DfES have advised admission panels and appeals
panels to accept a letter from commanding officers to say that
a family is moving into an area, even if they do not have a specific
address. That is one step we are trying to push forward, recognising
the difficulties we have to try to make it easier.
Q216 Mr Hancock: We have been told
in evidence to the Committee that information between the MoD
and school authorities about postings can be poor. I suppose that
works in both directions, both when you are moving a unit in and
when they are moving out, because the effects of children leaving
school and not being replaced can have a pretty dramatic effect
on them. How does the MoD normally inform schools and the authorities
of planned large-scale postings? How much notice would you give
a local authority and individual schools?
Mr Touhig: I think it is patchy.
Brigadier Brister: We have a Tri-Service
schools liaison policy which sets out the policy for liaising
at three levels; first of all with DfES (which is done by SP Pol
with CEAS supporting them), then at regional level and then at
individual school level. Points of contact are nominated at all
those levels with the lead service in each region. It is the responsibility
of those liaison officers to keep the local authorities and particularly
the local schools informed of significant developments in those
areas. CEAS also have an important liaison role with local education
authorities where there are significant numbers of service children.
I know from the evidence at Colchester that this form of communication
is not perfect, because some of the heads made the point that
they felt they were not being told of developments, they were
not getting sufficient notice. We know that, however hard you
try, communication is never perfect but we must strive to make
it perfect. I do not know whether those instances of which you
heard are blips or indicative of a more serious issue, but we
need to find out. I like to think—and I am relatively confident—that
they are blips. I am not suggesting that this policy is working
perfectly. I think it works, by and large, okay. There is clearly,
as we have heard, room for improvement.
Q217 Mr Hancock: You have mentioned
the notice you give to an individual about their movement, but
the MoD and the Army must have, well in advance, the plans of
operational movements for large movements of personnel, maybe
as long as a year, maybe 18 months, maybe even longer. We were
at the Royal Navy and they had a list up which could tell us where
ships are going to be deployed over a four-year period. I cannot
imagine the Army is too different from that. You must know the
numbers involved in each of those units for the potential for
children going into the area. In your experience, Brigadier, what
would be the notice period that you would serve on a local education
authority and the local schools of those large movements? Would
it be a year?
Brigadier Brister: I am afraid
I cannot put a specific time on it. I can say that liaison contacts
should inform the local authorities of the time that they know
of these changes. The intent of the policy is that, as we know
of changes, we inform the local schools and the local authorities.
Q218 Chairman: The ending of the
arms plot should make that easier.
Brigadier Brister: It should.
Obviously the super garrisons in time of course should make that
easier—although there will still be mobility within the
Forces, as you know.
Chairman: Of course.
Q219 Mr Jones: Brigadier, you said
that you inform the education authorities and the schools. Do
you inform both? What is the method? Do you leave it to education
authorities to inform the schools or do you inform schools directly?
Brigadier Brister: The intent
is to inform both, because we have these three layers of liaison.
So individual schools by their school liaison officer, and then
the regional point of contact as well. That is what the intent
is.
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