Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-259)
MR DON
TOUHIG, BRIGADIER
ANTHONY BRISTER,
MS LIZ
CASSIDY, MR
DAVID WADSWORTH
AND MS
KATHRYN FORSYTH
2 MAY 2006
Q240 Linda Gilroy: Would you therefore
be able to provide the necessary funds for the Service to have
its own independent website?
Brigadier Brister: This is for
CEAS?
Q241 Linda Gilroy: Yes.
Brigadier Brister: As you know,
CEAS has a website at the moment which is hidden away deep in
the bowels of other websites. At the moment we are working on
CEAS's own website. I am hopeful that it will go live before the
end of this month. We have been working on it for some considerable
time and I very much hope—I cannot promise because you know
the difficulties with websites—to have it go live before
the end of this month.
Q242 Linda Gilroy: I think one of
the things that came out of the evidence was the lack of certainty
in some quarters as to where to access that information. Is there
a strategy including that to try to improve upon that? You have
offered to send us various packs that are available, it would
be quite useful for us to be able to see what is available in
general. Perhaps you could let us have a comprehensive set of
what is available.
Brigadier Brister: Indeed.
Mr Touhig: I think there is a
whole range of things that we do provide for the MoD that the
public are not conscious about. As an aside, the Veterans Agency
does a fantastic job in terms of giving advice to veterans but
if I walk down Blackwood High Street in my constituency no-one
would have heard of the Veterans Agency. We are taking steps to
raise the profile. I am very conscious that so many more people
are now accessing information through websites that we do have
to address this as an important arm in our communications strategy.
Brigadier Brister: In terms of
CEAS and the awareness of what it has to offer within the Services,
certainly we are acutely conscious that there are still some people
who are not aware of what is on offer and we will address that.
Could I just go back to one question you posed before which we
never quite answered. You made the point of hearing anecdotally
that some Service families are reluctant to seek help. I am confident
that reluctance does not include seeking help from CEAS. I am
confident that people are very happy to seek help from CEAS. I
think from the evidence in Colchester it came through quite strongly
that parents were happy to seek assistance from CEAS and were
pleased with the assistance that they got. Anecdotally people
are suggesting that sometimes they are loath to seek advice from
elsewhere but CEAS, I think you will find, is perceived throughout
the Services as friendly forces.
Q243 Linda Gilroy: If I can just
make an observation and pass it back to you. While that may be
comparatively true there is always an issue in Service families
about putting difficult situations forward because people, perhaps
with particular personalities and characters, do not want it to
be seen that their family cannot manage. There is that sort of
ethos there. While I hear what you say I hope it would not lead
to too great a degree of, complacency is not the right word but—
Mr Touhig: We do emphasise with
Service personnel as far as career promotion decisions are concerned
that any issues about problems of special needs is not taken into
account at all. I have picked up some anecdotal comments that
it is but that is the advice we are giving to our Service personnel.
Brigadier Brister: The important
thing about CEAS is that it is completely outside people's chain
of command. It is not part of their daily life, it is right outside
their chain of command. Of course we must not be complacent, I
take that point.
Mr Wadsworth: Sometimes we find
overseas youngsters arrive who have not gone through the CEAS
system but that is more often than not where there has been a
very late marriage prior to the posting and, therefore, probably
even the unit welfare officer is not aware of the special needs.
It does not happen too often but it does happen occasionally.
Earlier on there was a comment that there is a perception that
Army families probably have a higher proportion of youngsters
with special needs than the norm. I can understand where the anecdotes
and supposition might come from, but if you look at my organisation
we have got just short of 12,000 children and young people virtually
all from a Service background. I know authorities have different
approaches to statementing and I think in the UK the average statement
is somewhere between 3% cent of the school population and 1%,
depending on the authority, but as of whenever I left the office
last, we had 74 statements, which I have just worked out is 0.7%
which does not bear out the more severe end of the special needs.
Q244 Mr Holloway: I want to back
up what Mrs Gilroy said. Again, it is anecdotal but I was having
tea with an Army family on Saturday afternoon who were echoing
precisely the points that she has made.
Brigadier Brister: In terms of
coming forward?
Q245 Mr Holloway: In terms of having
an issue over the husband's status within the Army and the difficulty
interacting with them because of that.
Brigadier Brister: One of the
telling points that was made in Colchester was one of the Service
wives who when asked about the amount of assistance she had received
said she felt she had not received as much as she would have liked
but some moments before had been saying how much she had appreciated
the help she had from CEAS. When questioned by the Chairman she
said, "Oh, I don't count them as part of the Army".
There is quite a danger here in terms of perception. Because CEAS
is all civilians and do not behave in a military way, if you like,
are a civilian organisation making it very clear they are there
to help people, very often parents do not regard them as part
of the Army but they are part of what the Services provide for
Service families.
Chairman: While the Forces and Services
culture makes it difficult to complain I will confirm what you
have said, that CEAS got a good write-up when we were in Colchester
last week and I think you deserve credit for that. Can we now
move on to turbulence in general and the effect of it on families.
Q246 Mr Jones: Thank you, Chairman.
The Army Families Federation told us that 40% of Army families
were moved in one year and that compares with about 11% of the
civil population. We also received concerns that the increase
in tempo and demands on Armed Forces has led to more unaccompanied
postings. Are you concerned in terms of the rise of unaccompanied
postings and the implications in terms of operational effectiveness,
ie not having your families with you?
Brigadier Brister: You must understand
that my area of responsibility is very much educational. Certainly
the Army still encourages accompanied service but each individual
family has to make choices based on their family circumstances.
These are influenced by the pace of operations and by schooling.
Schooling is a big influence. Ultimately, every Service family
has to decide, unless they are very lucky in terms of stability,
either that their child has a relatively disrupted education in
terms of constantly moving, and the Services do what we can to
help with that, or that the Service person will serve unaccompanied
so the family can settle and send their children to local schools,
or they will board their children. None of these three is a perfect
solution but it is, though, a fact of our way of life. Many of
us joined because we wanted the variety of moving but, of course,
there is this disadvantage. There is no perfect solution, all
that we can do is try to support Service families as much as we
can with whichever choice they make.
Q247 Mr Jones: Will the end of the
arms plot help the situation?
Brigadier Brister: The advent
of super garrisons in due course should reduce the amount of turbulence
but it will not end it.
Mr Touhig: I think it is recognised
that many Service families are content with this mobile lifestyle
but we have to recognise that others are not even though they
have joined a Service where mobility is key and important. I do
not think there is evidence to suggest in the way Mr Jones has
done that our commitments are having the kinds of impacts implied
by his question, nevertheless if there is any suggestion of that
we cannot be complacent about it and we have to judge that and
how we respond to it in the interests of having to care for our
people and their families in particular.
Q248 Mr Jones: Has any information
been collected in terms of whether it is a reason for people leaving
the Armed Forces in terms of not being able to get that stability
which certain families obviously seek?
Mr Touhig: We have our Continuous
Attitude Surveys, which I am sure you are aware of. I am not aware
that has been a significant factor although we are looking at
trying to get a Tri-Service survey which will make more sense
in getting the information we need. This is constantly monitored
because recruitment and retention is very important and if there
are issues surrounding that then we have to know what those issues
are in order to address them. I made the point that when I came
into Parliament 11 years ago that every door I knocked on in my
by-election was answered but in last year's General Election hardly
any doors were answered because in my area we have full employment.
The days when people joined the Forces because there was no other
work have gone and we have to compete. The recruitment and retention
is very important and if there are issues that impact upon that
then we need to address them.
Q249 Mr Holloway: Forgive me for
being anecdotal but can you clarify this whole question of boarding
schools and the allowances paid. Am I right in thinking that relative
to the average cost of independent schools the allowance has effectively
gone down over the last decade, for argument's sake? If that is
the case, how helpful is that to retention and stability for families
and children?
Brigadier Brister: I cannot speak
on whether in relative terms and how school fees have changed
it is worth less than it was, I am afraid, I do not know. However,
what I can tell you is it is still a relatively popular option,
there are still a significant number of schools to which Service
people choose to send their children where you can pay reasonable
amounts in addition to your Continuity of Education Allowance.
As you will know, you are required to pay a minimum of 10% but
clearly in many instances you have to pay a lot more than 10%
because if you choose to go to a school that costs more CEA—Continuity
of Education Allowance—is a specific rate.
Q250 Mr Holloway: That is my point.
Has that specific rate gone down or stayed static to the extent
that it makes that disparity greater than it was 10 or 15 years
ago?
Brigadier Brister: I do not know
in terms of 10 or 15 years ago, I am afraid. It is about 70% of
the average cost of a boarding school, but there are some schools
where if you use your Continuity of Education Allowance and go
to that school you can pay in the order of £1,800 a year
out of your own pocket, £600 a term.
Mr Touhig: We review this annually.
It has got £130 million spent at the moment. We do look at
the average cost of fees of boarding schools across the UK with
more than 30 Service children taking 75% of the average. There
is an annual review of this and we think that helps.
Chairman: I think it would be best to
come back to the issue of boarding schools because there are a
number of different questions that we will need to cover in relation
to it. Next we will move to questions in relation to deployments.
Q251 Mr Lancaster: It is widely accepted
that probably the most turbulent time for the family is when one
or other of the partners are deployed on operational service.
One of the key things we can do to try to minimise this turbulence
for the family is to give facilities so that the families can
keep in touch with the mobilised personnel. Could you start by
saying what things are available to Servicemen and their families
to keep in touch when they are on operational service?
Mr Touhig: I am aware of the evidence
you took from the youngsters particularly at Colchester where
they suggested free email and broadband on the same time zone
in the area where their parents had been deployed or were on training.
I think that merits consideration. We do a great deal at the present
time in order to facilitate communications. Obviously in difficult
areas, say in the deployment in Afghanistan at the present time,
that will take time to build up in terms of internet link and
so on. We are conscious that this is an area where we have to
give as much help and support as we can.
Q252 Mr Lancaster: I accept that,
but my question was what is available now, for example, in Afghanistan?
Brigadier Brister: I think the
point you are getting at is referring to the parents in Colchester
who were having difficulty contacting largely fathers in Afghanistan.
As I understand it, there is limited access at the moment. I would
imagine as the operation becomes more mature then those who are
deployed in Afghanistan will have greater access to email but
at the moment, as became very clear, it is limited in Afghanistan.
Q253 Mr Lancaster: Perhaps I can
try and help you with this. Judging from my own experience, having
been mobilised twice, certainly it does depend on how mature the
operation is. When I was in Bosnia in a mature operation I found
it quite easy to get access to email and, indeed, there were not
queues for telephones. However, when I was in Kosovo at the start
of the operation we used to have queues of probably three or four
hours to get on a telephone for just 10 minutes to talk to our
families. One of the results of that was that by the time you
did get to the front of the queue you were not in the best frame
of mind and for those 10 minutes per week—I am not sure
if it is still 10 minutes, maybe it is longer—it was not
a great conversation you were having with your family because
you did not start that conversation in the best frame of mind.
What I am trying to get at is at the moment, here today, are there
problems and what are you doing to try to resolve those problems?
Mr Touhig: We do have a welfare
package which includes a communications element and this covers,
as I am sure you know from your deployment, 20 minutes a week
in terms of the telephone. We are seeking internet and email communications
but you will appreciate in an early stage of an operation it will
take time for these things to mature. Clearly from the evidence
you have already taken this does cause concern to families when
their loved ones are on deployment. We recognise it is an issue
but it is something that has to mature and develop, it seems to
me.
Q254 Chairman: Minister, when you
say it takes time to mature, the knowledge of the deployment to
Afghanistan had been in place for a long time. Should not communication
with the families of those deployed be one of the most urgent
things that is set in place from the beginning of the deployment?
Mr Touhig: I think it is a factor
that we have to consider. From experience, and from Mr Lancaster's
experience, it does not happen very rapidly sometimes. Clearly
if there is an issue that families feel there is more we ought
to be doing we will have to look at that. I believe the progressive
build-up we naturally have at the present time is effective but
I recognise it is not there from day one if you are on deployment.
Q255 Mr Lancaster: Ms Cassidy, are
you responsible for the terms of service of our soldiers in your
role as secretary? What I am trying to get at here, and perhaps
you are the right person to ask, I am not sure, and if you are
not then tell me, is what level of service have we basically given
to our soldiers who are on operational deployment? What do we
say that they can have in terms of welfare to contact their families?
Ms Cassidy: I am not really the
right person, I am afraid. I am dealing more with civilians in
general.
Q256 Mr Lancaster: Or the other way
round then.
Ms Cassidy: I do not think I can
answer that, I am afraid.
Mr Touhig: As I have explained,
the welfare package does have a communications element in it,
which I am sure you are familiar with.
Q257 Mr Holloway: Minister, I am
aware from two weeks ago in Helmand Province of some of our troops
using locally purchased Afghan mobile telephones to contact their
families.
Mr Touhig: Yes.
Q258 Mr Holloway: I guess the package
certainly is not there yet.
Mr Touhig: As I say, these things
do in truth take time to mature. I recognise that this is an important
issue that affects morale, good wellbeing and reassurance to families
at the same time. If there is more we can do then we should do,
but at the moment my understanding is these mature over not a
long period but they are not there immediately upon deployment
and it takes a little time when we do deploy in a particular field
for this to get up and running.
Q259 Mr Holloway: When do you expect
that we will have the same level of service in Afghanistan that
we have in Iraq at the moment? The welfare package, for example?
Mr Touhig: I could not answer
that without having some reflection.
| 
